Cornwall21 Posted 12 February , 2016 Share Posted 12 February , 2016 Hello all on this forum, I bought an online auction lot two days ago and I was wondering whether someone could help me with citations, or where to find them. The lot had two pairs of medals, an Mc scroll, plaque and pair to captain clement perronet sells ramc and late raf, and another to lieutenant d l Davies, possibly of the Welch regt, later royal engineers. There's a lot of paperwork clippings to both men, but no citation. I felt very fortunate to purchase them and would welcome any help. Sells seems to have died of influenza according to clippings of his obituary. Thank you, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMasseyShaw Posted 12 February , 2016 Share Posted 12 February , 2016 Hello Ian, An unnamed MC "documented" to Captain C.P. Sells was sold by DNW on 23 June 2005 Lot 1223. If you look up their Archive, there is a fair amount of information given including a photo. According to DNW the MC was gazetted on 3 June 1918. This was the King's Birthday Honours List and no individual citations were published. Your group to Lieut D.I. Davies is initially puzzling as I can't find him listed in "Army Honours and Awards" as being awarded a MC. Do you have any more info on him, especially his forenames please ? Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 12 February , 2016 Share Posted 12 February , 2016 Hi Ian, Welcome to the Forum. MC awards were published in the London Gazette, but it is better to look for them in the free to download WO 389 files from the National Archives. The benefit of the records from the National Archives is that if there is a citation, it is often hand annotated to show the place and date for which the award was made (which don't appear in the published LG version), and so you can cross reference against other records such as war diaries. The bad news is that the MC for Sells is that it appears to be a King's Birthday Honours Award for general good service (rather than for a specific act) for service in France, with no specific citation. Looking at the war diary he may be mentioned to give you an idea of why he was nominated. The good news is that for D L Davies you appear to have only two options: Presuming that he isn't the Australian man, you would appear to have acquired the medal for a man that was awarded an MC and a Bar. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 13 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Thank you hugely gentlemen for the effort shown in researching these men. The auction was in Wales, so I'm presuming my second man, Davies, was a Welshman. However, the medal is clearly to a lieutenant rather than a more junior second lieutenant so wouldn't this count him out? Might he have been promoted between 1919 and the medal issue time approx three years later? Otherwise I appear to have the Australian field artillery officers medals which seems strange for a welsh auction. Do they still hold citations? I think the clues may be in the other clippings, which I will go through today, mostly family titbits. Thank you so much. Its so fascinating to delve into the man and how amazing it is to discover that there are still gems out there if you are lucky in the auction room on the day. My commission bid had twenty pounds left to run. Best wishes, ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 13 February , 2016 Share Posted 13 February , 2016 With reference to C P Sells there is a book out called Mr Brownriggs Boys, it traces,along with 47 other old Boys of Magdalen College. School,Oxford, their background,school record ,service record and circumstances of death. Amongst their number was a certain Noel Chavasse as well as your medal holder. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMasseyShaw Posted 13 February , 2016 Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Hi Ian, If you check the medal index card (WO 372/5/183613) for D.L. Davies (Welsh Regt & RE), this will probably tell you what rank his campaign medals should be showing. It suggests he finished the war as a Captain so chances are his British War & Victory Medals were issued to him as a Lieutenant. You ought to be able to find his promotion dates in the London Gazette Online but searching is often a painful process (I find that anyway!) so good luck with that ! Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 13 February , 2016 Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Hi Ian, ... Otherwise I appear to have the Australian field artillery officers medals which seems strange for a welsh auction. Do they still hold citations? ... Yes they do. Australian MC awards were also published in the London Gazette. So if there was a citation it would also be printed. To save you a bit of time though, and to get more information about the man, it would be worth looking at his service record which has been digitalise, and can be viewed free of charge from the National Archives of Australia. Both citations are included In the 38 page document as typed copies of the LG publications. The first award doesn't appear to give the specific place/date (the second one does), but if you download WO 389/4 on p125/182 you will see the hand annotated version of the LG version. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 13 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Once again thank you gentlemen for all your very kind advice and effort. I really appreciate the reference to the book and will immediately get on Amazon to find it. I find it quite amazing that someone, somewhere, decided to separate the Mc to sells and sell it at DNw when the group was so complete. Such a group is so rare with the pair, memorial scroll and plaque. I can only fathom it was split down two family branches at the time. The scroll is rather fabulous with the Mc following his name and the raf reference. That's my next investigation. I really cannot thank you all enough and will get back to you regarding which Mc and bar officers group, well pair, I think I have. after being the underbidder for over a year time and again, finally I was due some luck.. .and can't believe how fortunate I have been. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 13 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Update gentlemen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 13 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2016 Using the information offered, I contacted the author of Mrs brownriggs boys. He is a teacher and a very helpful man. He wrote the section on sells using the letters and photographic sources alluded to in the DNw page of Lot 1223, 23rd June 05. They were provided by a "manuscript collector" who I'm really hoping was the winning bidder a decade ago. I have been passed the Email of what I hope is sells original military cross custodian. How lovely would a complete reunite be? Thank you to all the kind people who have helped me so far. I truly believe your knowledge and time has at least given us a chance of putting the originals all back together. Will keep you updated. Seems like a very appropriate topic for the BMf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted 14 February , 2016 Share Posted 14 February , 2016 Ian The medal card for David Llewellyn Davies M.C., & Bar 12th Welsh R. & R.E. Confirms that his British War & Victory medals were issued to him as Captain, and that he was also entitled to the 1914/15 Star - so he is not your man. Why do you think that your Davies was awarded the MC ? Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 14 February , 2016 Share Posted 14 February , 2016 Medal Index Card - David Llewellyn Davies M.C. 2/Lieut. 12 Welsh R Capt. A Spec. Coy R.E. Theatre of War: Sept. 1915 Qualifying Date: (Roll 6.10.15) Applies for Medals: 19.10.21 Address: Uno Station, Via Port Augusta, S. Australia Service Medal and Award Rolls - 1914-15 Star: 2 Lieut. D. Ll. Davies, Welsh Regiment. Date of Disembarkation 6.10.15 British War and Victory Medals: Capt. D. Ll. Davies, Royal Engineers Temp. Lts. - 1 Aug.1918 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30902/supplement/11061/data.pdf JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 14 February , 2016 Share Posted 14 February , 2016 David Leslie Davies, AIF, MC and Bar JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 14 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2016 Thank you ever so much. I incidentally found the owner of sells military cross and photos who offered me the lot for 600 (what he paid plus comm) and ten percent on top. Would welcome your thoughts on this. He seems reluctant to sell though. Regarding the medals to davies, im a bit surprised he wasnt welsh as the auction was in wales and the lot had been together for many, many decades, perhaps fifty to seventy years. Could the pair realistically be to the australian, and was he not entitled to the 1914/15 star? I think my next point of call may be to find out if sells had any australian connection, maybe a sister who married an aussie. My mc hunch comes from a dirty, well worn medal ribbon bar with the mc, wm and vm. Sadly sells had died before receiving his mc, i know he was still entitled to wear the bar, but it looks v well worn, like its been through the wash a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 14 February , 2016 Share Posted 14 February , 2016 I think I've found the connection. Marriage of Mary A Jones to Clement P Sells registered Oct-Nov-Dec 1918, St George Hanover Square, London. (Volume Number: 1a. Page Number: 1113) Marriage of Mary A Sells to David L Davies registered Jul-Aug-Sep 1922, Islington, Middlesex. (Volume Number: 1b. Page Number: 711) JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall21 Posted 14 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2016 That's absolutely remarkable! I wonder whether Davies was an Australian though? I just sense that Davies Mc went the same way as that won by sells, in other words split up and sold off separately. Equally, i may be wrong and he may not be australian or welsh after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 14 February , 2016 Share Posted 14 February , 2016 A copy of David L Davies 1922 marriage certificate should provide some clues as it will give the following details - full name; age; address; occupation; father's name; father's occupation. The names of the witnesses will also be recorded - may be related. Order a copy of a birth, death or marriage certificate - GOV.UK JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 September , 2018 Share Posted 6 September , 2018 Hello from Ironbank, South Australia.I noted that it was two ago when the postings about David Davies appeared on this site, which I have just found and joined, and I very much hope Cornwall21 is still following. David Llewellyn Davies is very important to our local community. He was born on 12 September 1889 to Edwin Davies and Emma Coat of Mitcham, South Australia, and is named on the Ironbank Methodist Sunday School Roll of Honor 1914–1918. One of his close relatives wrote that he 'Stayed in England and joined 2nd King Edwards Horse. Transferred to 9th Welsh regiment, saw a lot of action in France, decorated with MC and Bar, promoted to rank of Captain. Adelaide Advertiser reports he was decorated with the MC by the King at Buckingham Palace. In July 1917 the family were advised he had been wounded, shot through the chest, took several months to recover before returning to the front. He returned home on the Plassey in about 1919. He met his future wife Rachael Phillips on board; she was returning to her home in Brisbane after nursing in India. Lived at Uno station, then later bought a block called Stromso at Edwardstown (between Furness Avenue and Weaver Street, west of the main south road). Later lived at Waikerie before moving to Millers creek. Spent time between Raesbrook and Adelaide, spent their remaining years at Hyde Park.' Two articles about David appeared in one of our regional newspapers: We are glad to learn that Mr. Edgar Davis, formerly one of the partners of the firm of Davies Brothers, who sold out and left Renmark some time back, is again settling in Renmark,having taken up land until recently held by Dr. Guinand. These blocks being rather out of the way and having no house accommodation, Mr. Davies has taken the house which Mr. Richardson erected some time back, on the vacant piece of land adjacent to Mr. G. B. Ogilvy's block on Tarcoola st. We are also glad to record that Mr. Davies' brother, Lieut. D Davies of The Welsh Regiment, when last heard from was quite well after several months fighting in France, and he had been specially thanked by his Colonel for the manner in which he had conducted bombing attacks upon the enemy trenches when many of his men had been killed. (Murray Pioneer and Australian River Record, Thursday 18 May 1916, page 6) RENMARK MAN WINS MILITARY CROSS. Readers of The Pioneer may recall the recent publication of a letter from a former Renmark settler now serving in France with a Welsh regiment, in which there was a modest reference to the receipt of thanks from the General for work done in the cutting of wire entanglements before the German trenches. The letter was written by 2nd Lieut. D. L. Davies, who was holiday making in England when the war started and joined the 9th Welsh regiment. His relatives have lately been advised that Lieut. Davies was awarded the Military Cross on April 20, receiving the decoration at the hands of the King at Buckingham Palace. The deed for which the Cross was awarded is described as cutting through about 80 yards of barbed wire and getting right up to the enemy's trenches in an important reconnaissance. "Dave" has many friends in Renmark who are delighted to hear of the honour bestowed on him. Congratulations have been cabled this week by the Renmark Patriotic Committee. (Murray Pioneer and Australian River Record, Thursday 1 June 1916, page 4) I am currently working on a book featuring all of the World War 1 soldiers who are named on the Ironbank and nearby Upper Sturt Honor Rolls. It would be really special if I could include a photograph of the medal in the book (and, if it's still available, being able to display the actual medal at our special celebration on Remembrance Day this year would be simply amazing). Thank you to everyone who has provided information via this forum. Judith (Ironbank) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 6 September , 2018 Share Posted 6 September , 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Judith Upper Sturt said: Hello from Ironbank, South Australia.I noted that it was two ago when the postings about David Davies appeared on this site, which I have just found and joined, and I very much hope Cornwall21 is still following. David Llewellyn Davies is very important to our local community. He was born on 12 September 1889 to Edwin Davies and Emma Coat of Mitcham, South Australia, and is named on the Ironbank Methodist Sunday School Roll of Honor 1914–1918. One of his close relatives wrote that he 'Stayed in England and joined 2nd King Edwards Horse. Transferred to 9th Welsh regiment, saw a lot of action in France, decorated with MC and Bar, promoted to rank of Captain. Adelaide Advertiser reports he was decorated with the MC by the King at Buckingham Palace. In July 1917 the family were advised he had been wounded, shot through the chest, took several months to recover before returning to the front. He returned home on the Plassey in about 1919. He met his future wife Rachael Phillips on board; she was returning to her home in Brisbane after nursing in India. Lived at Uno station, then later bought a block called Stromso at Edwardstown (between Furness Avenue and Weaver Street, west of the main south road). Later lived at Waikerie before moving to Millers creek. Spent time between Raesbrook and Adelaide, spent their remaining years at Hyde Park.' Two articles about David appeared in one of our regional newspapers: We are glad to learn that Mr. Edgar Davis, formerly one of the partners of the firm of Davies Brothers, who sold out and left Renmark some time back, is again settling in Renmark,having taken up land until recently held by Dr. Guinand. These blocks being rather out of the way and having no house accommodation, Mr. Davies has taken the house which Mr. Richardson erected some time back, on the vacant piece of land adjacent to Mr. G. B. Ogilvy's block on Tarcoola st. We are also glad to record that Mr. Davies' brother, Lieut. D Davies of The Welsh Regiment, when last heard from was quite well after several months fighting in France, and he had been specially thanked by his Colonel for the manner in which he had conducted bombing attacks upon the enemy trenches when many of his men had been killed. (Murray Pioneer and Australian River Record, Thursday 18 May 1916, page 6) RENMARK MAN WINS MILITARY CROSS. Readers of The Pioneer may recall the recent publication of a letter from a former Renmark settler now serving in France with a Welsh regiment, in which there was a modest reference to the receipt of thanks from the General for work done in the cutting of wire entanglements before the German trenches. The letter was written by 2nd Lieut. D. L. Davies, who was holiday making in England when the war started and joined the 9th Welsh regiment. His relatives have lately been advised that Lieut. Davies was awarded the Military Cross on April 20, receiving the decoration at the hands of the King at Buckingham Palace. The deed for which the Cross was awarded is described as cutting through about 80 yards of barbed wire and getting right up to the enemy's trenches in an important reconnaissance. "Dave" has many friends in Renmark who are delighted to hear of the honour bestowed on him. Congratulations have been cabled this week by the Renmark Patriotic Committee. (Murray Pioneer and Australian River Record, Thursday 1 June 1916, page 4) I am currently working on a book featuring all of the World War 1 soldiers who are named on the Ironbank and nearby Upper Sturt Honor Rolls. It would be really special if I could include a photograph of the medal in the book (and, if it's still available, being able to display the actual medal at our special celebration on Remembrance Day this year would be simply amazing). Thank you to everyone who has provided information via this forum. Judith (Ironbank) Hi, Welcome to the forum. As Cornwall hasn’t signed into the forum since March 2016 I’ve sent him a message to alert him to your post. He ought to receive it if he hasn’t changed his email since he joined the forum. Steve Edited 6 September , 2018 by tullybrone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 6 September , 2018 Share Posted 6 September , 2018 I can add a bit more to his service with the Special Brigade: 14.10.16 - to Special Brigade; home address given as Uno Station via Port Augusta, S Australia. 23.12.17 - Attached "E" Special Company 12.4.17 To "A" Special Company 14.4.18 - Temp Lt RE 8.5.18 - Second-in command "A" Company 1.2.19 - Demobilised TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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