30 Machine Gun Battalion 21 March 1918

[inkerman]

Is there an expert on the MGC on the Forum? My particular interest is Lt Maurice Peters, KRRC att MGC who was awarded an MC for an action on 21 Mar 1918, as an officer in 30 Bn. Does anyone have a copy of the Bn War Diary for that day?

Any help and advice appreciated

Richard

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Richard

If no-one else comes up with the details, the War Diary is downloadable from the National Archives website. Here is the file reference:

WO 95/2323 30 Battalion Machine Gun Corps 1918 Mar. - 1919 Sept.
The ref might have a /6 after it, as there are several diariues in the same box.

I think downloads cost £3.30.

Ron

[woollamc]

Richard

Not sure if you have seen it, but the citation for Maurice William Peters' MC is here (London Gazette).

The War Diary entry for 21 March 1918 is very sparsely written. It is here on Ancestry, if you are a subscriber.

If you are looking for diary entries prior to 1 March 1918, I think that 30th Battalion was mainly formed from 226th Company, MGC (see the Long Long Trail here). Their diaries are also on Ancestry here.

C

[Colin W Taylor]

Richard

He may have previously served with one of the other MG Companies attached to 30th Division - 21st, 89th and 90th MG Companies - which, along with 226th Company, formed the four companies of 30th MG Bn.

90th MG Coy can be found on Ancestry here - Piece 2340/5: Brigade Machine Gun Company (1916 Mar - 1918 Feb)

89th and 21st are not easily visible on Ancestry - there are found at Kew here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353653 and here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353644

Kind regards

Colin

[woollamc]

89th is here. 21st is here. According to the Gazette, the date of his secondment from KRRC to MGC was 27 September 1917.

C

[clk]

Hi Richard,

The war diary says that they were in the "St Quentin Area". The annotated citation in the MC register/deed book is slightly more specific, and records the award for his actions at Etreillers.

Regards

Chris

[inkerman]

Thankyou all for your help, which has given me further lines of enquiry, including a visit to Kew. I am currently housebound [replacement hips count as walking wounded] but as soon as I can drive again I will go. I think that Maurice must have been posted into 30 MG Bn or one of the antecedent MG coys because he was commissioned into the KRRC and 30 Div was recruited from Manchester and Liverpool, thankyou Ray Westlake. Is this a fair assumption?

[Ron Clifton]

Whilst 30 Division was originally raised in Manchester and Liverpool, it does not follow that everyone who served in it later in the war was also from that area. This is particularly true of officers.

Ron

[steandpaula]

Hi Richard,

If you haven't been able to check the diary, it does show Peters as sec officer C company at the start of March. C company were around Manchester Hill early in the month then were relieved and moved in to reserve in the battle zone which is why his action is recorded at Etreillers.

My great granddad won a MM with the 30 MG Battalion for action on the 21st. I have his medals, the certificate from Rawlinson and the Divisional card which states the 21st March as the date of the act.

I have been over there a couple of times and, other than the motorway, the area is easy to follow on maps of the period. His name was John Samuel Leach, I never met him as he died before I was born but my granddad told me that he was told he won the medal for staying at his position with his Vickers "as the whole army retreated around us" and knew it was time to try and get away as he had to shot a German officer in his trench! He and a comrade deactivated the MG( he kept the deflector mirror which I also now have) and managed to get away, a lucky, brave man.

If you ever come across anything else please remember to share it with us.

Regards,

Ste

[busterfield]

Sorry for being a bit tardy in replying.On the first page of the war diary for 30th machine gun battalion it has that "C" company was made up of the 90th machine gun company.My Grandfather was in the 30th "A" company.

buster

[Neil Hughes]

Hello all,

 

My Grandad, Cpl John W Rose, was in the battle of St Quentin in March 1918, was wounded losing an eye and decorated with the DCM. Have had some wonderful feed back from the Machine Gun Corps Database. Here are some snippets:

 

"In the case of your grandfather, he completed a very short six weeks with the Worcesters before being compulsorily transferred to the newly formed Machine Gun Corps, on 1/1/1916. He received the new number 7230. He was then sent to the HQ & Training Centre of the MGC, at Belton Park, near Grantham on a six weeks gunnery and tactics course, and while there, was allocated to the 89th Company."

 

"Your grandfather had advanced to the rank of Corporal by the end of 1917 and was undoubtedly the No 1 in his gun team.  On 1/3/1918, the four MG Companies within the 30th Division were amalgamated to form the 30th Battalion MGC - now with 64 guns and over 700 men, formed into A, B, C, & D Companies. The old 89th became "B" Company in the new organisation."

 

"It was almost certainly at the Battle of St Quentin (21-23 March 1918) where he won the DCM. His citation reads for conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during an enemy attack in keeping his machine gun in action continuously for eight hours. He twice remedied damage to his gun under heavy fire and kept it in action, firing continuously until the enemy were fifty yards off and he was hit in the head. His conduct throughout was splendid and his gunnery magnificent."

 

"The citation mentions that he was shot in the head during this action, and he was fortunate to escape being taken prisoner. His name appears as wounded in a War Office Casualty List dated 30/4/1918.  He would have been invalided back to the UK, and to a long spell in hospital. In all probability it was the end of the war for him, although we know that, having been medically downgraded, he continued to serve as No 22891 in the Army Pay Corps until finally discharged."

 

Still trying to find any good citations of the battle itself and any clear battlefield maps to explain how it developed. Any assistance gratefully received.

 

Photo attached. My Grandad is second from the left.

 

Neil Hughes

 

[kenf48]

Welcome to the forum

 

You can download the 30 Battalion MGC war diary from the National Archives WO 95/2323/5 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353622

or on Ancestry here if you subscribe.  There is an interesting letter sent in response to the OH outlining the events of the 21st. As well as a more contemporaneous account of the battle. It is perhaps worth mentioning that in there chaos of the attack writing the war diary was seldom a priority.

 

His previous service with 89 Company is always more difficult to pin down on Ancestry but again can be downloaded from TNA which is usually the best option as it's yours to keep

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353653

If you want to look on Ancestry start with 89 Brigade This diary should have maps showing the disposition of the Brigade.  There are no maps in the MGC diary which merely shows 'San Quentin Area'.  Although the MGC had amalgamated they tended, and this is not a rule, but in the early days to remain attached to their original Brigade.  So worth looking at the Brigade diary.

 

The seminal account of the first day of the German Spring Offensive is Martin Middlebrook's Kaiser's Offensive readily available 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kaisers-Battle-Martin-Middlebrook/dp/184415498X

 

Since the Centenary there have been many more accounts of the battles of 1918, but these tend to take the year as a whole e.g. Peter Hart's 1918.  One recent account that deals with 5th Army is Jerry Murland Retreat and Rearguard

 

Also there many online accounts including the Official History. Links to these have been posted on the forum previously and a forum search will help you find them.

 

You can download trench maps from the National Library of Scotland https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

this allows you to overlay present day maps  over the trench maps. There is information on how to read a trench map on the parent site the Long Long Trail link top right

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 23 February , 2019 by kenf48

[Neil Hughes]

Thanks Ken. Getting amazing help from so many people. Really appreciate this. I'll try and share anything I find which is specific. Hammering the Ancestry.com as I write. Neil.

[clk]

Hi Neil,

 

The DCM Register (National Archives file WO 391/6) appears to confirm that his DCM action was on 21st March 1918, at/near Roupy.

 

 

Regards

Chris

[kenf48]

This sketch map is in the 90th Brigade war diary

 

It shows the Divisional boundaries on the 21st March and the deployment of the Vickers Machine Guns which were operated by the MGC.

 

The arrow points to Roupy where two MG teams were deployed.

[Neil Hughes]

Thanks Chris and Ken. This is wonderful. Wow, to pin this down to distinct areas of the battlefield is incredible. Thank you so much. I'm hoping I can pin it to current day maps. Neil

[Neil Hughes]

Hi Chris / Ken,

 

I note from the Gazette pdf that there is a reference 0137 / 5210 next to the citation; do you know what that relates to?

 

Out of interest, who would have written 'Roupy' under the Gazette citation?

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Neil. 

[kenf48]

14 hours ago, Neil Hughes said:

Hi Chris / Ken,

 

I note from the Gazette pdf that there is a reference 0137 / 5210 next to the citation; do you know what that relates to?

 

Out of interest, who would have written 'Roupy' under the Gazette citation?

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Neil. 

 

Probably an Admin Reference doubt it has any significance now but happy to be corrected.

 

Once described on the forum as an excellent (but unknown) official

Ken

Edited 27 February , 2019 by kenf48

[kenf48]

On 25/02/2019 at 22:31, Neil Hughes said:

Thanks Chris and Ken. This is wonderful. Wow, to pin this down to distinct areas of the battlefield is incredible. Thank you so much. I'm hoping I can pin it to current day maps. Neil

 

This is the link to the overlay map on the NLS  site

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=49.8130&lon=3.1347&layers=101465353&b=1

 

The map is 66DNE 

 

The screen capture is on half overlay

[Neil Hughes]

On 23/02/2019 at 20:55, kenf48 said:

This sketch map is in the 90th Brigade war diary

 

It shows the Divisional boundaries on the 21st March and the deployment of the Vickers Machine Guns which were operated by the MGC.

 

The arrow points to Roupy where two MG teams were deployed.

 

Thanks again! Perfect

[ianshuter]

On 23/02/2019 at 12:33, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the forum

 

You can download the 30 Battalion MGC war diary from the National Archives WO 95/2323/5 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353622

or on Ancestry here if you subscribe.  There is an interesting letter sent in response to the OH outlining the events of the 21st. As well as a more contemporaneous account of the battle. It is perhaps worth mentioning that in there chaos of the attack writing the war diary was seldom a priority.

 

His previous service with 89 Company is always more difficult to pin down on Ancestry but again can be downloaded from TNA which is usually the best option as it's yours to keep

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353653

If you want to look on Ancestry start with 89 Brigade This diary should have maps showing the disposition of the Brigade.  There are no maps in the MGC diary which merely shows 'San Quentin Area'.  Although the MGC had amalgamated they tended, and this is not a rule, but in the early days to remain attached to their original Brigade.  So worth looking at the Brigade diary.

 

The seminal account of the first day of the German Spring Offensive is Martin Middlebrook's Kaiser's Offensive readily available 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kaisers-Battle-Martin-Middlebrook/dp/184415498X

 

Since the Centenary there have been many more accounts of the battles of 1918, but these tend to take the year as a whole e.g. Peter Hart's 1918.  One recent account that deals with 5th Army is Jerry Murland Retreat and Rearguard

 

Also there many online accounts including the Official History. Links to these have been posted on the forum previously and a forum search will help you find them.

 

You can download trench maps from the National Library of Scotland https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

this allows you to overlay present day maps  over the trench maps. There is information on how to read a trench map on the parent site the Long Long Trail link top right

 

Ken

 

 

I am researching L/Cpl 84886 30th Battalion MGC who was killed in action on the same day. He too was formerly a Worcester Regt soldier. The letter you mention is so interesting that I decided to transcribe it and it is posted below in full. It gives a fascinating insight to the actions, a precise location of part of the Battn and also perhaps an indication that the German offensive was doomed to failure from the start.

W.P. Andrew
12488 King L’Pool Reg later 142172 Machine Gun Corps
c/o Mr. A. J. Tibbitts,
Fruit Ridge Farm,
Farmington,
Michigan USA

Having heard that information regarding what occurred in March 1918 on the battlefront occupied by the 5th army was acceptable I beg to forward what happened in the St. Quentin sector, being a member of the 30th Machine Gun Battalion, 30th Division, taken prisoner March 21st 1918.

Half of the 30^th Bn M.G. Batt, 32 guns occupied the line immediately opposite St. Quentin Cathefral a village calledDalls, 400 yards behind the front line held by the 90^th Brigade. The date of taking over was the 7th of March 1918, so we were exactly 14 days in this position before the German attack.

The canal ran between us and the enemy but was drained by him near the town and was practically a dry bed and there were also a network of trenches dug long before by the French troops extending on both sides to the canal and barricaded near to the German lines. I am stating this as they advanced up these communication trenches that morning.

Speaking for the 90th brigade it was under strength to that extent that the frontline force was skeleton consisting of isolated Lewis Gun posts to say nothing of any experienced personnel, however gallant they were.

On Wednesday evening the 20th of March the enemy sent over a number of both scout and battle planes about 6 o/c and by drawing fire from our gun positions had them spotted. I wish to mention here that not more than three or four of our Vickers Guns were in concrete positions or shelters the remainder being only camouflaged by branches & c. The section that I belong to commanded by 2^nd Lieut Morrison had one gun in concrete emplacement on a 40 foot bluff above the village, Dallas, and the other gun of course was in the open on top, covered as well as possible. We had a tunnel to The concrete position that sheltered the section, 12 men, All would never have got into action.

That night the heavy batteries 6 & 8 shelled St. Quentin and exploded a huge amount of shelves that were massed there even in the open showing what preparations the enemy had been making. It is also worth mentioning that the Germans did not reply to our fire or even send one shell for the whole 14 days and that grass a foot high was growing in shell holes made two or three years previously or possibly the first year of the war.

When the Boche planes came over the previous evening a small squadron of our aviators went over to engage them, Not sure of the number but not over six (6). It was a forlorn hope for none came back, the German planes rising from the city and engaging 2&3 to one in an almost desperate move to stop them at all costs.

The German barrage opened as nearly as I can place it at 5.am. 21^st March on Thursday & included an enormous amount of gas shells and every calibre they possessed, making of course a creeping barrage in a Crescent shaped attack all wires being destroyed. Mr Morrison sent a message to headquarters but the runner was killed in 30 yards. The next thing we heard the fighting in the front line and went into action in the open that we had been firing from the end of the tunnel at 800-1000 yards.

Bye good luck the other gun was intact and we started in with a full crew accept one casualty, the Gunners 2 men on each gun, the remainder using rifles, range 400 yards in clear view, but some of the enemy had to cross the canal and made pontoons or used scows. The others crossed the dry canal bed and came up the deep trenches. While sighting on the scows I noticed that many of the attackers wore the spiked helmet (Pickelhunter) as in 1914 & seemed to be picked troops from their actions. A group of them boarded a scow were all killed or wounded and new men took their place.

I can safely say that Mr Morrison's section held up the Germans advanced on this sector and inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy. They sent strong bombing party to our rear and being occupied with firing to the front the first Germans bomber got within 20 yards of me before I turned. However we wiped out the bombing party but had five more casualties and one Vickers put out of action. Mr Morrison emptied his revolver and we used the Mills grenades only half of which exploded, by the way. Morrison swung the gun around and we used our last two belts in a circle (500 rounds), the smoke being so thick that we could not distinguish the enemy but knew he was all around us. Ben stripped the gun through the lock away.

Morrison ordered me to take care of our wounded man, and try to get him out. He took three men in a dash for the rear position to get into action there. I had one man named O’Connor to assist me with the wounded man, leg shattered by bomb. I carried this man on my shoulders with the other man assisting me for perhaps 200 yards down the board tracks, hoping to get through the barrage (our own), leave the wounded man safe and push through to the rear to join up. As we crossed the common trench I slid the man off my back to rest on rising ground and as I turned a German officer had me covered. The man with me, O’Connor was killed at the same time by our own M. Gun fire from the rear of course unavoidably. This Germans officer had been held up in this trench with his platoon by our barrage created by our heavies for the R.F.A. were among the first to be captured, how I cannot say.

This officer could speak excellent English, ask me a lot of questions and of course learned nothing but it showed that he and his men had only arrived the night before and did not know whether they were near Amiens or any other city. As a matter of fact this was 25K from Ham, Royon, Nesle and those points. One of his NCO’s wanted to shoot me for a machine gunner and showed they had lost heavily from our section but I was sent back under the escort to the German rear which was in an awful state of confusion.

The casualties had been heavy, they had no medical corps working in an efficient way. The food stations were very poor but between carrying a few wounded and waiting for an escort it was 3 o/c in the afternoon before I reached the city and found Morrison and three men there making five prisoners in our M.G. Section and 7 casualties. I heard on good authority but the German officers had distinct orders to take all unwounded men possible and they killed the wound did on the ground. The following morning in St. Quentin there were approximately 1800 NCO’s and men and 250 officers of the Fifth army.

A German officer acting interpreter asked if anyone of our rank care to give details of Russians issued to our men in the field and if they objected it was quite all right. Our NCO, rank of Sergeant, told them ¾ of meat and all the usual stuff. They compared notes and were visibly impressed. The previous night, about 12 o/c the German commander in St. Quentin had granted the request of a Lt-Colonel of the 90th Brigade for some kind of rations for the men and was only able to issue canned beef and water but apologising for the shortage in various ways, as the officer who made the request informed everybody by proxy.

Yes the German army at its best then was poorly equipped as to transport horses, stretchers, Field Ambulances and food in any form.

This account is probably related and possibly ancient history but it is true.

Yours truly M. P. Andrew 142172, 30 Bn M. Gun Corps late 12488 Kings Liverpool Reg.

Intended for historical purpose. Any communication to enclosed address will be received. Yours sincerely M.P.C. Andrew

Edited 20 January by ianshuter