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Remembered Today:

M1 & M2 prefix - ASC


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John and Craig,

You are covering old ground in new ways! You should drift over to the BMF and search for prefixes. That will give you some idea of what has already bern done. Howard Williamson has a list of ASC prefixes in his series of books about WWI. I disagree with him about the "W" prefix. He thinks it has to do with water while I take the traditional view that it refers to Welsh enlistments, primarily the 38th (Welsh) Division.

All the best,

Gary

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Craig,

Have you tried dropping the leading zero on the M1's. So far I have only found one case on a MIC, M1/06565 and M1/6565, Alfred G Barnes, where the number appears interchangeable, but I do know that there are M1/xxxx men that would slot into the same time frame. For example, George W E Kemp, M1/5557, disembarked 09/11/14. I do not know if either have service records. I have just used them as examples of numbering.

Phil

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Craig,

Have you tried dropping the leading zero on the M1's. So far I have only found one case on a MIC, M1/06565 and M1/6565, Alfred G Barnes, where the number appears interchangeable, but I do know that there are M1/xxxx men that would slot into the same time frame. For example, George W E Kemp, M1/5557, disembarked 09/11/14. I do not know if either have service records. I have just used them as examples of numbering.

Phil

I noticed that on one record but I hadn't looked further at it - if nothing else I can get together a time-line of enlistments and enlistment types for future use.

Up to now I have just dotted around through the records to get a spread of dates.

Craig

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Gentlemen

Just to put another one into the mix I have come across EMT/, which was used,apparently, for those who re-enlisted in 1919.

You could almost write a book on this subject of numbering in the ASC :whistle:

John

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John,

Young lists them as: EM, ER, ES and ET. Not everyone received these new prefixes as you often see medals for the Afghanistan expedition with single letter prefixes. As you said, an interesting field of study!

All the best,

Gary

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John and Craig,

You are covering old ground in new ways! You should drift over to the BMF and search for prefixes. That will give you some idea of what has already bern done. Howard Williamson has a list of ASC prefixes in his series of books about WWI. I disagree with him about the "W" prefix. He thinks it has to do with water while I take the traditional view that it refers to Welsh enlistments, primarily the 38th (Welsh) Division.

All the best,

Gary

The W prefix undoubtedly stands for Welsh., I have found two series WT4 and WS4. The first is for horse transport 4th Army and the second for Supply 4th Army, the latter being men who were butchers and bakers. There are a number of service records for men with both these W prefixed numbers and all of them have "Welsh" written at the top of their papers. My view is that they were originally issued with the formation of a Welsh Army Corps in mind, an idea supported by David Lloyd George. This never came to fruition of course with just 38th Welsh Division raised as mentioned in Gary's post.

TR

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Terry,

I don't have access to Ancestry so I have been using the CWGC records. Many/most of them are associated with either the 38th Division Train or Supply Column. I have not been able to confirm any "WM" men. Like you, This leads me to the conclusion that W = Welsh! Howard Williamson argues differently.

All the best,

Gary

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Strange that the Welsh should be singled out in this way ( isn't it ! ) Not that I am casting doubts about it, but why not S for Scots, I for Irish etc. ?

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Terry,

I don't have access to Ancestry so I have been using the CWGC records. Many/most of them are associated with either the 38th Division Train or Supply Column. I have not been able to confirm any "WM" men. Like you, This leads me to the conclusion that W = Welsh! Howard Williamson argues differently.

All the best,

Gary

I must say that, although I've only been looking at the M1&M2 prefixes, from what I have seen I would agree that the 'W' appears to be for 'Welsh'. There may be something in the Welsh Army Corps records on the Cymru1914 site.

Craig

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He we go straight from the horses mouth so to speak

www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/20100302-Abbreviations_(2).doc

If you type/paste into search engine, then open with Word a document of 16 pages will be display alphabetically all abbreviations commonly used by the army, on the bottom page (quote)

W. Prefix sometimes used in ASC, RA and RE numbers to denote Welshman

John

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John,

Well spotted! Some of their descriptions are not correct. They also have a (3) in some of the descriptions but don't explain what it means. I see they have "M1" as New Army transport details and "M2" as New Army electricians. Good so far, except trios with "M2" prefixes are appearing on eBay on a frequent basis, more so than you would expect for the number of electricians who would have been enlisted. More to ponder!

All the best,

Gary

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M/296059. Arthur Reginald Camp. Att.9/9/16. Occ. Motor Mechanic. Mob.16/2/17. Grove park. 17/2/17. Passed learner Test. 20/5/17. Tested on Halley and Pierce Arrow heavy lorries at Bulworth Camp (seen a couple of postings to Bulworth. also Larkhill). France. 4/12/18.

.

Guy,

Do you mean Bulford Camp, Aldershot ? If so, Vehicles were issued there prior to embarkation.

Tomo

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Getting closer to the earlier numbers:

Several things jump out:

The M1 prefix was used for a range of enlistment types

The numbers weren't allocated immediately on enlistment.
Initially it was used for a much wider range of skills before settling down primarily to drivers.
Many shipped off to France well before the K1 army units did.

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Craig

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M/296059. Arthur Reginald Camp. Att.9/9/16. Occ. Motor Mechanic. Mob.16/2/17. Grove park. 17/2/17. Passed learner Test. 20/5/17. Tested on Halley and Pierce Arrow heavy lorries at Bulworth Camp (seen a couple of postings to Bulworth. also Larkhill). France. 4/12/18.

.

Guy,

Do you mean Bulford Camp, Aldershot ? If so, Vehicles were issued there prior to embarkation.

Tomo

You are quite correct, I've mixed up Bulford & Lulworth.

Going back to his service record,rather than my notes, his heavy Lorry training was at Hounslow/Isleworth! Would that be Osterley park?

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M/296059. Arthur Reginald Camp. Att.9/9/16. Occ. Motor Mechanic. Mob.16/2/17. Grove park. 17/2/17. Passed learner Test. 20/5/17. Tested on Halley and Pierce Arrow heavy lorries at Bulworth Camp (seen a couple of postings to Bulworth. also Larkhill). France. 4/12/18.

.

Guy,

Do you mean Bulford Camp, Aldershot ? If so, Vehicles were issued there prior to embarkation.

Tomo

You are quite correct, I've mixed up Bulford & Lulworth.

Going back to his service record,rather than my notes, his heavy Lorry training was at Hounslow/Isleworth! Would that be Osterley park?

Guy,

Osterley Park was in Hounslow, I believe lorries for driver training were also stored at Isleworth LOC garage. Many driver instructors were recruited from the LOC.

Tomo

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Getting closer to the earlier numbers:

Several things jump out:

The M1 prefix was used for a range of enlistment types

The numbers weren't allocated immediately on enlistment.

Initially it was used for a much wider range of skills before settling down primarily to drivers.

Many shipped off to France well before the K1 army units did.

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Craig

Craig,

With respect, I think you may be reading too much into the Civ. Occ. column. This refers to the entrants previous occupation and not what he became in the ASC. According to Ralph Miller ( IWM interviews ) All MT entrants were trained as Vehicle Fitters/ Mechanics and then encouraged to take the driver courses.

The first induction centre was in Aldershot, probably Bulford which was quickly overrun with hopeful applicants. When Grove Park was opened, Bulford became a mobilisation depot where vehicles were issued prior to embarkation.

Regards

Tomo

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Craig,

With respect, I think you may be reading too much into the Civ. Occ. column. This refers to the entrants previous occupation and not what he became in the ASC. According to Ralph Miller ( IWM interviews ) All M entrants were trained as Vehicle Fitters/ Mechanics and then encouraged to take the driver courses.

The first induction centre was in Aldershot, probably Bulford which was quickly overrun with hopeful applicants. When Grove Park was opened, Bulford became a mobilisation depot where vehicles were issued prior to embarkation.

Regards

Tomo

I don't think I am - what it indicates is that they tried as much as possible to get men in who could already drive and were ready and able to be utilized with the minimum of training (a sensible idea). It's not to say other skills weren't to be found in the men who were recruited and it does, to me, demonstrate that the M1 numbers were primarily aimed at supplying drivers & mechanics etc, unlike some of the suggestions that are mooted.

It also demonstrates that M1 men weren't held back for the New Army's but that they were used ASAP.

Craig

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Craig,

This is the comment I was referring to.

Initially it was used for a much wider range of skills before settling down primarily to drivers

I was merely trying to point out that the wider range of skills were the previous occupations of the entrants, perhaps I have misunderstood what you meant by this ?

Tomo

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Craig,

This is the comment I was referring to.

Initially it was used for a much wider range of skills before settling down primarily to drivers

I was merely trying to point out that the wider range of skills were the previous occupations of the entrants, perhaps I have misunderstood what you meant by this ?

Tomo

Ah got ya :thumbsup:

What I meant was that they don't seem to have been as picky originally over taking men who could clearly drive as their main skill - I think they took whoever turned up and then they later settled down to primarily those who could clearly drive and no doubt the men with other skills were diverted elsewhere.

Craig

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Craig

Thank you, that is now clear. I was worried that an ice cream man might turn up in the lists ! Which of course he may yet do, as long as he was a driver !

Tomo

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Craig

Thank you, that is now clear. I was worried that an ice cream man might turn up in the lists ! Which of course he may yet do, as long as he was a driver !

Tomo

Anything is possible - they were desperate.

Craig

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Thanks John.

Of course my example would have to be a hypothetical ice cream man, as I don't suppose they were about then. Well not with motor vans anyway ! Now, back to the task in hand.

Regards

Tomo

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3 of my uncles were motor driver/fitters before they joined the Army as Privates, one joined the RFC as a motor fitter R W King 458245 in 19 Sep 1916, but the other two joined the ASC one who joined on 21 Aug 1916 was at Grove Park from 23 Aug 1916 in the ASC MT (A H King his number was M2/202906) and the other P F King transferred into the ASC on 17 Nov 1917 and his number was M/351875 and he was in Grove Park in the ASC MT. So it seems Motor Driver fitters could have the prefix M2 or M. I have their Army Records.

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