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ss002d6252

M1 & M2 prefix - ASC

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ss002d6252

Following on from a linked thread in which the M1 & M2 prefix is being discussed I have compiled the following spreadhseet.

I have no background at all in how the prefixes were allocated or in the ASC so hopefully I'm coming at it without any pre-conceived ideas.

post-51028-0-24118800-1454679648_thumb.p

Hypothesis:

M1 was allocated to 1 year special enlistment men. In Nov 14 the special enlistment was done away with and men were enlisted on DOW terms, there seems to be a sharp cut-off at the end of Oct 14.

M2 was introduced for DOW terms of enlistment but not before a few DOW men were given M1 prefixes. So far I've not found any M1 & M2 dates of enlistment which overlap.

EDIT:
An AO of 4 Aug 14 offered 1 year special enlistment terms for drivers etc

There was a drive in mid-Aug 14 to recruit ASC men to the New Army- this was on DOW terms so doesn't appear to have been men with the M1 prefix.

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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Tomo.T

Craig,

I am still trying to research M1/5444 Pte. Woolgar who was at Grove Park in 1915. His mates from the medal roll M1/ 5431 to M1/ 5446 are all listed M1. However Pte. Naylor (Fred) 5434 has had his entry altered, the M1 is crossed through and a 2 is written beside it. Can you shed any light on this ?

Edit, Had a thought on this myself, If Private Naylor had failed to meet the required standard of driving he may have been backloaded to receive further training. He would then have popped up in time for the M2 (2nd New Army ) intake and had his number altered to suit.

Sounds good to me anyway !

Tomo

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Waggoner

Craig,

Another source suggests:

M1 - New Army Mechanical Transport electricians

M2 - New Army Mechanical Transport fitters (could be used as drivers)

Clearly, the 1 - 4 sequence that was used for New Army supply and horse transport men was not followed. Presumably, there was a reason for this. Hope you can suss it out!

All the best,

Gary

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ss002d6252

Craig,

Another source suggests:

M1 - New Army Mechanical Transport electricians

M2 - New Army Mechanical Transport fitters (could be used as drivers)

Clearly, the 1 - 4 sequence that was used for New Army supply and horse transport men was not followed. Presumably, there was a reason for this. Hope yiu can suss it out!

All the best,

Gary

I need a new challenge after the war gratuity.

Clearly a lot of accepted explanations can be thrown straight out unless they really retrained much needed drivers as electricians and forgot to note it in the service records.

Craig

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Phil Evans

Craig,

You've clearly got too much time on your hands these days :D

I look forward to your findings, as it has been a much asked question over the years that no-one has got to the bottom of. I have always been of the belief that the "electrician" theory was a red herring.

As I live within spitting distance of Grove Park and have a general interest in the ASC, I'm looking forward to this thread.

Phil

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Bernard James McManus

Hi everyone,

I was very interested to read this thread as I am currently researching the WW1 service of my grandfather, James McManus, (M2/156606), who belonged to the ‘Army Service Corps’.

Just thought I would contribute to the thread with an oral account from one of his sons (i.e. my Uncle) which has been passed onto me:

‘He (James McManus) rarely spoke about it (WW1). He drove munitions trucks and the explosives were notoriously unstable so when they drove in long convoys when a shell hit one truck the rest of the trucks went up one by one like dominoes so just drove on not knowing if the vibrations meant you were next or how many of your mates would arrive at the next destination.’

I.e. he was a driver with the ASC and had the prefix M2.

His WW1 service record appears to be one of the many (circa 2,000,000) service records which were sadly lost due to the bombing raids in World War 2, so I do any details on his date of attestation or discharge.

I note from the spreadsheet that all bar two (marked unknown) of the soldiers listed were trained at Grove Park.

Was Grove Park the only basic training establishment for new recruits to the ASC?

Cheers,

Bernard

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Tomo.T

Bernard,

There were two main driver and training depots and all ASC recruits and transfers passed through one of them. One was at Grove Park,Lewisham, the other at Osterley Park, Hounslow. For more details and pictures of these establishments see the thread; Steam traction driver left his name.

Tomo

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Waggoner

Just to add a twist to this, I have the medals to a soldier with an "M2" prefix who was an electrician by trade and employed as such in France. Go figure!

All the best,

Gary

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ss002d6252

Just to add a twist to this, I have the medals to a soldier with an "M2" prefix who was an electrician by trade and employed as such in France. Go figure!

All the best,

Gary

Do you have his service records ?

Craig

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Waggoner

Craig,

Yes, I do. As I recall, he was employed operating an electrical power generating plant before he was recruited. One in France, he commended for restorng the water system of a village.

All the best,

Gary

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Knotty

Hi Guys

With all of this discussion going on about the ASC prefix nomenclature to their service numbers, I have had a trawl through previous queries and quickly compiled a list of what I have determined the references to refer to which trade they fall into.(Not guaranteeing its complete).

Please feel free correct me and I will endeavour to update.

ASC prefix.pdf

John

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Phil Evans

John,

My DM2 man, William Francis Browning, DM2/151213 (Pension record survives), was a Motor Driver pre-war and anecdotely a driving instructor on the side. He enlisted December 1915, so possibly a late minute Derby Scheme man. Joined at Grove Park 15.03.16.

On your Remount listings, I have a spreadsheet for 1 ARD, which has RTS prefix men disembarking 10.08.14. I would be inclined to treat them the same as TS, a couple of which are on there as well, other than the Remount qualification.

The trouble with Special Enlistments (in all branches of the ASC) is the incredibly quick turn round. I seem to recall one being three days from joining to embarkation.

Phil

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ss002d6252

Hi Guys

With all of this discussion going on about the ASC prefix nomenclature to their service numbers, I have had a trawl through previous queries and quickly compiled a list of what I have determined the references to refer to which trade they fall into.(Not guaranteeing its complete).

Please feel free correct me and I will endeavour to update.

attachicon.gifASC prefix.pdf

John

Thanks John- a useful guide but I'm pretty certain the M1& M2 is primarily drivers with fitters etc dotted amongst them rather. I've looked through (so far) just under 40 M1 & M2 men (where records survive) and just 5 have been fitters (+ 1 body builder). This would fit the need for drivers primarily with other skills thrown in to the mix as they came through the recruitment.

What's also interesting is the cut-off dated between the enlistment types and the numbering sequence.

Craig

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ss002d6252
The trouble with Special Enlistments (in all branches of the ASC) is the incredibly quick turn round. I seem to recall one being three days from joining to embarkation.

That seems to be the case with a lot of the 'MS' men I've seen - not quite as quick with the 'M1' men but some have still moved out pretty quick.

Anything that can tease out more information is great - the advantage we have is that 'big data' is possible in a way which have never really been possible in the past.

Craig

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Knotty

Thank you gentlemen for the observations, the ASC is very nebulous when it comes to service numbers.

My observations of numbering classification is a "work in progress" of mine, and I look forward to adding additional info as and when and giving the forum a chance to critique.

Cheers John

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ss002d6252

Thank you gentlemen for the observations, the ASC is very nebulous when it comes to service numbers.

My observations of numbering classification is a "work in progress" of mine, and I look forward to adding additional info as and when and giving the forum a chance to critique.

Cheers John

I feel sorry for the clerks originally - no doubt they received instructed daily telling them who and what was to be numbered. If only these had survived in full (it wouldn't be a challenge them though).

Craig

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Waggoner

John,

An interesting list...lots of hard work in it! Mike Young's book on the ASC has an appendix on prefixes. My own list has about 46 different prefixes with new ones appearing on a regular, but infrequent, basis.

All the best,

Gary

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Tomo.T

John,

My DM2 man, William Francis Browning, DM2/151213 (Pension record survives), was a Motor Driver pre-war and anecdotely a driving instructor on the side. He enlisted December 1915, so possibly a late minute Derby Scheme man. Joined at Grove Park 15.03.16.

On your Remount listings, I have a spreadsheet for 1 ARD, which has RTS prefix men disembarking 10.08.14. I would be inclined to treat them the same as TS, a couple of which are on there as well, other than the Remount qualification.

The trouble with Special Enlistments (in all branches of the ASC) is the incredibly quick turn round. I seem to recall one being three days from joining to embarkation.

Phil

Phil,

That's interesting as DM has been listed as a learner Driver ? Could this have actually meant Driver Instructor by any chance ?

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Tomo.T

Hi Guys

With all of this discussion going on about the ASC prefix nomenclature to their service numbers, I have had a trawl through previous queries and quickly compiled a list of what I have determined the references to refer to which trade they fall into.(Not guaranteeing its complete).

Please feel free correct me and I will endeavour to update.

attachicon.gifASC prefix.pdf

John

John,

It is now clear that there were M3 and M4 No.s issued as well as the M1 and M2 you have listed.( see thread Norries ASC conundrums.) This makes it likely that M 1-4 denotes Drivers MT being posted to the relevant new armies. This is completely in line with the T 1-4 No.s of the Horse Transport.

Tomo

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GWF1967

From my medal/tag collection records I found.

M2/100612. Joseph Herbert John Walker Wilson. Att. 26/5/15. Occ. Motor Driver/Mechanic. Grove Park. 27/5/17. Employed with the colours. Driver/Storekeeper.

M2/150287. Robert Charles Lloyd. Att. 6/11/15. Occ. Chauffer/Mechanic. Employed by Robert.H.Bunner Motor & Cycle Agent. Motgomery. 4 1/2 yrs. Driving daily for 3yrs and 40,000 mls performing running repairs, with no serious breakdowns. Grove Park.17/11/15. 24/2/16 departed Avonmouth. 5/3/16 Alexandria.

M/296059. Arthur Reginald Camp. Att.9/9/16. Occ. Motor Mechanic. Mob.16/2/17. Grove park. 17/2/17. Passed learner Test. 20/5/17. Tested on Halley and Pierce Arrow heavy lorries at Bulworth Camp (seen a couple of postings to Bulworth. also Larkhill). France. 4/12/18.

DM2/166196. Edward Cann. Att.Bristol. 1/1215. Occ. Engine Driver. Mob. 27/3/16. Osterly Park. 29/3/16. passed Learners Test. 12/7/16. M.E.F. 9/8/16. ( Note in Cann's file regarding pay rates for provisional and qualified drivers and reminder that faliure to qualify within unspecified timeframe would result in a posting to another ASC branch).

Also found M2/135316. James Bannister. Att. 30/10/15. Cardiff. (ASC MT Learner or Leaner - Ancestry). Occ. Fireman. Osterly Park.30/10/15.

Guy.

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ss002d6252

Regardless of intention with the prefixes, a large number of 'M1' were off to France within weeks of enlisting (and before the K1 divisions). These are just some that I've had time to check on (the medal rolls have long lists of similar cases).

post-51028-0-08848700-1454777718_thumb.j

*

The men with unknown as date going overseas are men who have only BWM/VM's so after 31/12/1915

Craig

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Tomo.T

Craig,

Roger so far over. You are saying that category M1 includes some MT Staff and Drivers who were posted prior to the 1st New Army arriving in France. So M1 both precedes and includes the 1st New Army, correct ?

If so this may indicate that training the 1st New army Fighting Troops took longer than kitting out the experienced Drivers who had joined the ASC. The latter were presumably sent on their way whilst the former were still bayoneting sandbags.

Tomo

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ss002d6252

Craig,

Roger so far over. You are saying that category M1 includes some MT Staff and Drivers who were posted prior to the 1st New Army arriving in France. So M1 both precedes and includes the 1st New Army, correct ?

If so this may indicate that training the 1st New army Fighting Troops took longer than kitting out the experienced Drivers who had joined the ASC. The latter were presumably sent on their way whilst the former were still bayoneting sandbags.

Tomo

Pretty much how I read it - the intention may have been for them to go to the New Army but they were off to France before New Army were trained. I'd imagine that the needs overcame the intention.

Craig

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Tomo.T

Excellent progress !

Also, what was the point of holding competent drivers in Britain when they could be fitted up with a lorry and sent off where they were needed.

Of note in the chart is that the trainees/ transfers and drivers listed so far, have all come through Grove Park. ( apart from a few unknowns ?) This is because the other training establishment at Osterley Park, was only opened after Grove Park was inundated with potential recruits during 1915.

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ss002d6252

Excellent progress !

Also of note in the chart is that the trainees/ transfers and drivers listed so far, have all come through Grove Park. ( apart from a few unknowns ?) This is because the other training establishment at Osterley Park, was only opened after Grove Park was inundated with potential recruits during 1915.

On that I have no idea (but I'd presume that was the case if I had to guess).

The unknowns have insufficient records to confirm but I'd be pretty confident it was Grove Park as well.

Craig

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