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Remembered Today:

Australians only at Fromelles


Ghazala

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Far from the maddening crowd. With you on this one Khaki.

TT

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But, re security, it appears that all and sundry will be allowed access to the second-best paddock adjacent to the cemetery, seemingly without registration, to watch the service on video screens. I presume that will be the field just beyond the cemetery, on the opposite side of the road, with Pheasant Wood and the original site of the burial pits behind it.

It's a no-runner with me also... 'Security' is an oft-repeated excuse for exclusion of this, that, and the other for whatever reason that organisers don't want to be bothered with... I appreciate that Ken and others were not saying that this was the excuse being proffered for limiting participation, but is is such an easy thing to hide behind after recognising that an embarrassing mistake has been made.

Trajan

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Excellent article. As mentioned above, I too am a british ancestor of an Aussie soldier buried at Pheasant Wood, Samuel Farlow. It would be nice from my point of view though, given the circustances, if the Australian authorities would track down Sam's surviving Australian descendants......which they failed to do back in 2010 when DNA samples were requested (although of course his UK descendents were very honoured to have helped in Sam's identification). There is a great great niece (like me) and a great great nephew that I know to who still live in Victoria......it would be nice for them to be extended an invited to attend the memorial in July this year. The other point for me from the article is many other commonwealth soldiers joined the cause and suffered the same awful fate, many without British roots such as India just to mention one and, unless I've missed it, you don't hear them constantly going on about been cannon fodder.

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Excellent find. The article says it all.

Quote: "

....this years commemoration is historically confused and based on an anachronistic understanding of Australian and British connections during the war. It’s also an example of the danger of linking your national identity too closely to your military history."

End of quote

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Just a reminder to any who might be willing to hear this, the average aussie has had no part in any of the discussion or decision making in ceremonies of remembrance abroad, the average aussie thinks that commemoration on the western front should be open and inclusive (certainly my opinion). As always, politics, self interest etc. interfere with the average person's right to be at certain events, and this is not pointed at a single nation, all are guilty and make mistakes and stupid decisions.

I find some of the comments in some posts above ignorant and personally quite offensive

Regards

An average and proud Aussie, with a father-in-law at Gallipoli with 6 East Lancs, a grandfather in British Intelligence WW1, a father in British Army WW2, an Italian mother with relatives in prisoner of war camps WW2.

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Thanks very much for your fair minded post. (I hope that does not sound patronising.)

It is interesting that everyone seems focussed on Fromelles (I know, that's the name of the topic, so surprise, surprise!) and one of Australia's five divisions on the WF and one British divsion. No comments at all about what is being arranged at Pozieres, where there were three times as many Australian divisions (1st, 2nd and 4th) involved - and thus presumably three times, give or take, the number of British born. Now the fighting of what is described as the Battle of Pozieres (23 July - 3 September) also 'officially' involved the 1st, 15th, 19th, 23rd and 34th Divisions (III Corps, Fourth Army) - albeit only for a day and the 12th, 48th and 49th Divisions II and X Corps), with the fighting for Mouquet Farm involving 12th, 25th, 48th and 1st, 2nd and 4th Divs AIF. All this according to James' Records of Engagements etc.

So far as I can see, no one seems to be objecting to whatever the Australian government is organising there - or possibly they are not yet. I assume that there will be something big, hopefully bigger than at Fromelles, given both its much greater military significance and the numbers of Australian involved in the fighting. To my mind the controversy and the size of the ceremony at Fromelles is a consequence of recent events ... and these things are ever thus.

As mentioned above, I happen to think that a little bit of give in the original planning of VA Australia might have been wise - not just for Brits who might be buried in Pheasant Wood CWGC cemetery, but for ancestors who fought in that particular engagement (but the admin involved!!). As also mentioned, I think that the descendants of the Germans who fought there might have been considered. On the whole, however, if the thing was not to become a massive administrative exercise requiring disproportionate resources, one can entirely understand - if not necessarily agree - with the decision to go for Australian passport holders.

How the media and/or others want to play around with the idea of incompetent and heartless British staff officers and so forth is an entirely different matter.

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Just a reminder to any who might be willing to hear this, the average aussie has had no part in any of the discussion or decision making in ceremonies of remembrance abroad, the average aussie thinks that commemoration on the western front should be open and inclusive (certainly my opinion). As always, politics, self interest etc. interfere with the average person's right to be at certain events, and this is not pointed at a single nation, all are guilty and make mistakes and stupid decisions.

I find some of the comments in some posts above ignorant and personally quite offensive

Regards
An average and proud Aussie, with a father-in-law at Gallipoli with 6 East Lancs, a grandfather in British Intelligence WW1, a father in British Army WW2, an Italian mother with relatives in prisoner of war camps WW2.

Thanks Shirld.....been watching this post for a few days now and the world go by with it and both the media and some feelings expressed here seem solely designed to generate some hate .......Agreed....not all Australians agree with government policy, nor should all Australians be tarred with the same black brush as they have here........I'm Australian born, of Scottish descent.....I have both Australian and Scottish family buried on the Western Front and never presume to treat or automatically regard my fellow traveller......if I come across them while on the Western Front....with same poorly pre conceived ideas expressed here.

All the best,

Robert

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As one who prefers to keep ones own company walking battlefields or visiting cemeteries or memorials, or at best with a couple of good mates, the Fromelles commemoration this year does not affect me, but I do concur with ShirleyD's comments on post 58.

I also feel the exclusions to attend discussed herewithin the thread seem harsh and simply wrong.

As for the Aussie bashing from a few Poms, par for the course for some, but it can make no dent on the impact of the AIF's contribution in the Great War, wherever they were born, and is irrelevant to ordinary Aussies as Shirley so well put. Move on.

Ian

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On a lighter note, I would be more than happy to visit the Western Front post 2018 and enjoy just as equally in my heart the visit. And to Khaki, yes I love curry, apple pie and good coffee to boot. Happy days! I think the whole commemoration of WW1 and its numerous occasions was always going to be difficult in a centenary year, bearing the current world climate. And I was born in England, enduring Aussie anti Pom rants in Perth in the 1960's when I arrived and went to school there. Now I am proudly Australian while the fixation rests on others. As I said, move on.

Ian

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  • 1 month later...

....... and, unless I've missed it, you don't hear them constantly going on about been cannon fodder.

Yeah. You've missed it.

What hasn't been mentioned in this thread are todays deep cultural differences. This was a battle for the diggers, an ATTACK! For the British Berks, "a series of trench raids" To this day, July 19 is the deadliest day in the country's history, war or otherwise.

This isn't about the 100 year old cry about cannon fodder, or the chateau generals. Those topics have been done to death, and we all know the english and others infantry suffered the same.

This is about the rapidly emerging realisation that it was one of only a few events that formed the psyche of the fledgling nation. Fromelles, until 10 years ago, was virtually unheard of in Aus. That is changing. This is about a rapidly emerging, strident nationalism, quite different to anything before. This memorial service reflects the significance in Australia of this story. It is a uniquely Australian story. Other countries have their stories. The attack at Fromelles by the 5th is Australias story. If the English wanted to make a big deal of the 61st in the last 100 years it would've happened. It hasn't.

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I wonder what the 200th anniversary will bring, if even remembered ? a few enthusiasts maybe, an editorial in a newspaper or two? who knows?

khaki

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I, too, get exasperated at this pernicious attempt to divide Poms and Aussies. I am the direct descendant of an original 'Digger' who went out in 1852 from Birmingham to the Ballarat goldfields, made (and lost) two fortunes, was made a Freeman of the city of Melbourne and was run over by a Melbourne Corporation tram in 1913 at the age of 83.

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With about 13 weeks to go, I wonder how the allocation of tickets is progressing. Will non-Australians still be confined to the field across the road, watching on a big screen, if there are empty seats in the grandstands surrounding Fromelles (Pheasant Wood) Cemetery?

Nigel, in post #59, mentions the Germans. I know that there has not been much success in arousing German interest in Fromelles, but the locals at Pozières have reached out with some success in the past and had German participation in cultural events including their biennial Son et Lumière ... so I wonder whether there will be a German presence at Pozières this year.

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From what I hear, the idea for the Pozieres ceremony is that the overflow will watch on big screens at Thiepval; well. I suppose if they crick their necks a bit they should be able to see the communications mast, and parts of the village and the northern side of the battlefield.

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On a lighter note, I would be more than happy to visit the Western Front post 2018 and enjoy just as equally in my heart the visit. And to Khaki, yes I love curry, apple pie and good coffee to boot. Happy days! I think the whole commemoration of WW1 and its numerous occasions was always going to be difficult in a centenary year, bearing the current world climate. And I was born in England, enduring Aussie anti Pom rants in Perth in the 1960's when I arrived and went to school there. Now I am proudly Australian while the fixation rests on others. As I said, move on.

Ian

Hello Ian,

I think that you are right about commemorations becoming difficult, I have often noticed how sometimes things deteriorate into national absurdities such as, "we suffered more casualties than other combatant nations", what value does that have except in evaluating tactics?

Apple pie is an appropriate GW analogy, the trouble being is that sometimes individual nations want others to see that they have grabbed the largest slice.

khaki

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Yeah. You've missed it.

What hasn't been mentioned in this thread are todays deep cultural differences. This was a battle for the diggers, an ATTACK! For the British Berks, "a series of trench raids" To this day, July 19 is the deadliest day in the country's history, war or otherwise.

This isn't about the 100 year old cry about cannon fodder, or the chateau generals. Those topics have been done to death, and we all know the english and others infantry suffered the same.

This is about the rapidly emerging realisation that it was one of only a few events that formed the psyche of the fledgling nation. Fromelles, until 10 years ago, was virtually unheard of in Aus. That is changing. This is about a rapidly emerging, strident nationalism, quite different to anything before. This memorial service reflects the significance in Australia of this story. It is a uniquely Australian story. Other countries have their stories. The attack at Fromelles by the 5th is Australias story. If the English wanted to make a big deal of the 61st in the last 100 years it would've happened. It hasn't.

Thanks for the comments, mate, straight from the heart and wonderfully and forcefully made.

Your comments regarding 'ATTACK!' (your capitals) and 'a series of trench raids' (your own lower-case), to my mind indicates that your argument in the same post about 'it being a uniquely Australian story' is, at best, quite wrong and, at a very basic level, very insulting to those of British and Irish descent whose family members still may lie in the vicinity of Aubers Ridge and the associated battlefields; And if you continue to use the phrase 'English' to describe the lads (and yes we al know that the 61st was a nominally-English Division), then be prepared for some advice from our Welsh, Scottish and Irish forum members!

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.... your argument in the same post about 'it being a uniquely Australian story' is, at best, quite wrong and, at a very basic level, very insulting to those of British and Irish descent whose family members still may lie in the vicinity of Aubers Ridge and the associated battlefields;..... (and yes we al know that the 61st was a nominally-English Division), then be prepared for some advice from our Welsh, Scottish and Irish forum members!

Thanks Petroc,

All my forbears are either Irish or Scottish so I understand the advice you are offering!

Please don't interpret my comments as historical fact. That wasn't the intent. The use of uppercase was to impart emotion. It was an attempt to describe today's Australian view of the Fromelles action. Views and beliefs inevitably carry some myth and legend, and conveniently ignore salient facts (pun??).

So to simplify my point; The efforts of the AIF on the 19th July had a profound impact on a young nation wrestling with the concepts colonialism and nationalism. A century later, the concept of self determination is increasingly debated. (see comment re strident nationalism, its often pretty ugly) This is no doubt influencing the manner in which a memorial event is being organised.

Every country has its own history. Its own sacred grounds. How they reflect that history, how these sacred grounds come to be, doesn't diminish or disrespect any other country and how it chooses to reflect its history.

I've attempted to describe what I perceive to be a rapidly changing culture in Australia, to offer in small part, an explanation as to why the Fromelles ceremony is being managed the way it is. I suspect I've done a poor job!

A common theme in this thread is, "what about...." Perhaps there is room in the world for a universal/global memorial reflecting all countries involved in conflict?

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...I am quietly amused by all the chuntering going on in this thread, having witnessed a complete fire-fight elsewhere about the exclusion of women from a commemorative event in uniform! Let's not even go there.... More so the references to the 'English' as opposed to the 'British' - my grandfather was Austrian, an intelligence officer who survived the duration, in the British army! He joined the Terriers in 1913 and then went out in 1914 with the Welsh regiment. So, 'British' captures many nationalities! :thumbsup:

HH

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...I am quietly amused by all the chuntering going on in this thread, having witnessed a complete fire-fight elsewhere about the exclusion of women from a commemorative event in uniform! Let's not even go there.... More so the references to the 'English' as opposed to the 'British' - my grandfather was Austrian, an intelligence officer who survived the duration, in the British army! He joined the Terriers in 1913 and then went out in 1914 with the Welsh regiment. So, 'British' captures many nationalities!

Must have been an exciting four years or so for him :huh: That in itself sounds like an interesting story!

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Mmm.... I wish I could glean more. All I know is that he contracted measles in 1917 and spent some time in a field hospital! He ended the war with the rank of acting captain. His brother also served in the British army.

HH

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Guest 26thBattalion

There was some minor uproar in Canada when the media learned that only 40 Canadian admissions would be available. Sadly, they missed the point that the CEF had nothing to do with 1 July. Don't let get facts get in the way. However, our government is conducting an official ceremony at Courcelette on 2 July but you can bet there will be nobody there in any official capacity on the actual 15 September anniversary nor any of the Canadian Somme Campaign anniversary dates in October and November 2016 . 24,000 Canadian casualties and virtually forgotten here. This is how our government approaches the centenary. They are saving money by ignoring all the anniversaries save 9-12 April 2017; they will use the Vimy anniversary to commemorate the entire Canadian Great War effort and sacrifice while feeding the public silly nation building myths in the process.

Having toured the old Western Front for the last 25 years I secretly look forward to 12 November, 2018 when all the hype and government owned commemorations are no longer an issue and those who care and truly remember can sit still, reflect and respect.

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It seems the British families cannot expect any help from our government on this issue.

Below is a transcript of a response I have received from the MoD via my MP. (the original PDF was to large to attach to this posting)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ministry of Defence

THE RT HON EARL. HOWE PC

MINISTER OF STATE IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS

Our ref: D/Min(Lords)/FH.

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

FLOOR 5 ZONE B MAIN BUILDING

WHITEHALL LONDON SW1A2HB

Telephone: 020 7218 9000 (Switchboard)

11th April 2016

Thank you for your email of 12 February on behalf of your constituent, Michael Bemrose, of Leicester, regarding the commemoration service of the Battle of Fromelles in July 2016. I apologise for the time it has taken to reply.

We have enormous admiration and respect for the unique contribution and sacrifice made by Service veterans who fought during the British Military operation on the Western Front during the First World War. I was pleased to learn that Mr Bemrose's Grandfather, Gunner Fred Bemrose, served with the 61st Royal Field Artillery. Please be assured that his loyal and dedicated service is still appreciated today.

The Battle of Fromelles was a major engagement for the Australians during the First World War, and the first major action that they saw on the Western Front. I understand the area around Fromelles had been heavily fought over, and changed hands many times, before the Australians arrived. However, the battle was responsible for one of the greatest losses of Australian lives in 24 hours, only surpassed by the Battle of Bullecourt in 1917. It follows that commemorating the centenary of Battle of Fromelles is a major event for the Australian Government.

As space is limited for the Battle of Fromelles centenary commemoration ceremony in July 2016, the Australian government, who are organising the event, have chosen to give priority to Australian citizens who wish to attend. This is similar to the priority that is given to British citizens at commemorations organised by the British Government, such as Thiepval. More than 1.5 million Australians can claim some family link to those that fought on the Western Front in the First World War, so the Australian Government is expecting demand for this event to be very high.

I do understand Mr Bemrose's disappointment that British families will not be able to attend the commemoration itself. However, I can assure you that there is no ban on British citizens visiting the village of Fromelles during the event, and that citizens of other countries can still attend public screenings at a nearby alternative viewing location in Fromelles. However, on the day of the commemoration there will be no access to Pheasant Wood Cemetery for anyone not attending the ceremony.

House of Commons

London

SW1AOAA

Further details on the Australian arrangements for the commemoration and the public screenings are available at the Anzac Centenary website:

http://www.anzaccentenary,gov,au/frequently-asked-questions

I appreciate you writing to me about this matter and I hope this explains the situation.

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