Australians only at Fromelles

[Ghazala]

In The Times today...

Relatives of fallen British soldiers have been banned from the centenary commemorations of a First World War battle that led to thousands of Australian casualties.
British military planning has been blamed for the heavy losses at the Battle of Fromelles. Described by one commander as a tactical abortion, it left 5,513 Australians dead or injured. The colonial troops had arrived on the Western Front only days earlier.

See http://www.thetimes....icle4683301.ece

Edited 5 February , 2016 by SPOF
Edited to meet copyright restrictions.

[Steven Broomfield]

Can't see the problem. Everyone knows they won the war.

[trajan]

Also in my regular lunch time waste-a-few-minutes - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3433199/Australia-accused-airbrushing-history-bars-British-families-centenary-commemoration-WWI-battle.html

[Old Tom]

If true seems a great pity. A thread in the Cemeteries forum suggests that the British authorities ignored requests to provide detail of British aspects of that battle. With luck a furore will be avoided.

Old Tom

[Sly]

Hi,

More than 3,000 seats will be set up for Australian and French families and VIPS at the Fromelles (Pheasant Wood) Military Cemetery

This is NOT TRUE, I repeat what I have said here: ONLY AUSTRALIANS PASS HOLDERS AND VIPS (including French, australians, and maybe British VIPS as well) will have access to the ceremony. There won't be any French family ! French people, as well as the Brits and all the other nationalities couldn't apply for the pass.

Sly

[velo350]

Link to story in Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/12141620/Australia-accused-of-banning-British-families-from-World-War-One-centenary-commemoration.html

[nigelcave]

For what it is worth, and reference the point made by Veterans Affairs Australia in the Telegraph article cited above that the Thiepval ceremony will be restricted to Brits, actually it has not been restricted to just British residents; inter alia, there was an allocation (admittedly small) for people from other combatant nations fighting, for the sake of ease, under the 'British' flag - ie including Dominions with their own flags, to be present. Having said that, IIRC it was restricted to the then dominions - whatever, it was not an entirely British allocation.

EDIT: I see from the original announcement that it was UK, French and Irish residents - I am pretty sure that it was extended to South Africans (as they are commemorated on the memorial), Canadians and Australians, but in very small numbers.

Interesting that no one mentioned that Dr Roger Lee, Head of the Australian Army History Unit, has a rather different take on Fromelles to the Australian War Memorial - again, as per the Telegraph link.

[SiegeGunner]

The main problem here, as with other issues relating to Fromelles, is that Australian representation is at national level and the Australian authorities therefore seek cooperation and partnership at a similar level in the UK, whereas, in fact, British interest in the commemoration of events at Fromelles (throughout the war, not just for a few weeks in the summer of 1916) is more diffuse and based at the level of regimental organisations, individual descendants and groups like the British Memorial Association Fromelles, which do not have either the political leverage or the financial resources of the Australian government.

France, like Britain, is an ancient country with a long history and an imperial past, and I have always found sympathy among the Fromellois for the explanation that there are so many special places and important events to commemorate that we, and in particular our government and military, cannot be everywhere and cannot participate or contribute to events and initiatives to the same extent as the Australians, who have only a handful of key locations and dates to commemorate. The fact that we are spread more thinly does not mean that we do not care, and the numbers of ordinary people who come from the UK under their own steam on the major anniversaries (and at other times) testify to the level of interest and commitment. How many of the invited guests and 'VIPs' would turn up if they had to organise and pay for everything themselves?

[Auimfo]

Australia organized this service to remember our fallen and have limited attendance to Australians (and no doubt other national dignitaries). The British service at Thiepval was organized to remember British fallen and attendance is limited almost completely to Brits. Personally I can't see the problem.

It's got nothing at all to do with ignoring others, whitewashing history or 'banning' people - that's just media spin to hype up attention. It's simply the nations involved specifically focusing on their own county's participation in the war and choosing the site they feel best suited to do it.. I'd say that's pretty normal for any people (no matter where from) with a sense of national pride.

However, I would hope that British descendants of men serving in the Australian forces at Fromelles, were given the opportunity to attend the Australian service. If they weren't, then they should have been.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[alastaircox]

I agree Tim, it's cynical media hype.

[green_acorn]

As an Australian, it is an unfortunate PR stuff up by the Dept of Veteran's Affairs/the Australian government, that they could not allocate 20% of the seating to descendants of the 61 Division fallen and their respective associations. I say 20% on the basis of respective losses. It is a great pity (probably) that the current military descendants of the 61 Division heritage, The Rifles and the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers are (probably) not involved, other than as official representatives, but that is not the fault of the Australian government.

Having said that, I note that it is an Australian organised, funded, themed and conducted event, not British. The decision on what events would be commemorated, by who, why, where, when, how and what would be involved, was decided long ago cooperatively by the concerned governments. The Australian government from memory have committed twice the funding that the British government has to WW1 commemorative events and funding was no doubt a factor in HM government deciding that they would not afford a priority to a Battle of Fromelles commemorative event. On that basis, the UK media's attention is pointed in the wrong direction, the question should be asked of the British MOD: Is HM government contributing to the cost and conduct of the Battle of Fromelles memorial activity?

I appreciate that there has to be limitations on who can attend all of the events, given space at the sites. Noting the comparative cost, and opportunity, of attending the Battle of Fromelles event, for someone from the Midlands, or someone from Australia and the frequency that both can visit, I know who would be the most disappointed if they couldn't get in. So the cynical, ill-informed and poorly thought through beat ups from the press and the pointless pity post from the usual GWF suspect does nothing to address and ameliorate the issue, Edited to delete comment about a post that has since been removed.

Cheers,

Hendo

PS: Our last Minister for DVA commented merrily after the 2015 budget cuts to his department and veterans services and entitlements that "the WW1 commemorative program was unaffected". As a former soldier and DVA pension recipient, you can probably imagine how pleased and uplifted I was by his comment and my governments budgetary decision!

[nigelcave]

I think a representational number of descendants of the 61st Division, which need not be very large - perhaps in the fifties, would be appropriate; as is the case (as I understand it, obviously on a different basis - for Thiepval). This one seems to have caused more angst than, say, the ceremonies at Pozieres a little later (I assume) in July. This matter is going to come up again and again - eg Delville Wood and South Africa (I am told every regular infantry regiment in the British army bar one was engaged there in 1916); possibly the Canadians at Courcelette and the New Zealanders at Flers. In each case I suspect that if a small allocation had been made to the other nationalities that were involved (that, in my opinion, would include Germans) and possibly a bigger one for the immediate French inhabitants, who have been custodians of the land around and about and have hosted, albeit often unwittingly, thousands of pilgrims and tourists), that would leave honour all round satisfied.

On balance I think that the British approach to the centenary is about right - so far as I know it involves constructing nothing but is financing ceremonies as deemed appropriate (needless to say, controversial) and getting a wide range of school pupils 'over there'; and the level of funding seems about right (I see that the original figure occasionally gets a top up).

[Marilyne]

If I can play neutral (again....) Belgium here... I think that if a country organizes, plans and pais for an event, be it a commemoration event or something else, it's logical that they decide who attends and who not.

This being said, if from the start on, they say they don't want the british there because they blame them for the losses of the battle, I think it's being narrow minded. For me, the first priority should go to all those who lay in the cemetery and fought the battle, meaning look at the persons and the family, and not some political considerations.

On the other hand, maybe the way the papers brought it wasn't ideal. Strat Comm !!!!

MM.

[velo350]

From the previous posts there seems to be an opinion that if a government agency has the finances, willpower and convenient geography, it can choose to discriminate against another nation when organising Great War centenary commemorations without any consequences.

The geographical location of families who lost relatives at Fromelles must have no influence on whether they should be allowed to attend official commemorations of any Great War events.

The centenary events are a once in a lifetime opportunity for all of us. It must make no difference whether families who wish to remember their lost relatives travel from the far side of the planet or from a neighbouring country to Fromelles. We all want to remember our lost men.

Pheasant Wood cemetery at Fromelles is a CWGC cemetery, its is not an Australian cemetery. I have asked the CWGC to confirm if they have approved the ADVA decision to bar British relatives from the centenary events. To date I have not received an answer to this question and I will continue to pursue this matter

The British occupied the trench systems at Fromelles and neighbouring areas for most of the Great War. In May 1915, the Battle of Aubers Ridge was fought over the same fields as the Battle of Fromelles. The British and Indian Divisions suffered 12000 casualties in less than 24 hours. The AIF involvement in this area was brief and tragic. The British tragedy in the Fromelles area last for most of the duration of the Great War.

The men of the AIF 5th Div and British 61st Div would have been attacking the German trenches in July 1916 knowing full well what had happened 15 months previously. Men of both nations would have been equally fearful of their fate at 6.00 PM on 19th July 1916.

The decision to bar the British from the formal events at Fromelles on 19th July is not just an insult to the men of the 61st Div who fought and died at Fromelles but also an insult to the memories of the men of the other British and Indian Divisions who fought and died in the Fromelles region during the Great War.

The ADVA were contacted about the barring of British attendance and the response I received is breathtaking in its arrogance and does not do justice to the Australian nation. To prioritise the French over any British attendance at the Fromelles is a blatant attempt to remove the British involvement from the battlefield at Fromelles. The writer of the response does not even use the word 'British' just referring to 'other nations'

An earlier post states that the media reports on this matter have been 'cynical, ill-informed and poorly thought through' without giving any example of this. Everything I have read in British and Australian press has been accurate and all quotes correctly used.(where attributed to myself) Everything reported has come though official channels and has been handle by appropriate media agencies.

We are all aware that we live in an era where systemic discrimination, injustices and inconvenient truths can be exposed by basic IT knowledge and a broadband connection.

Regards,

Mick B

[b3rn]

Is the CWGC cemetery closed to all visitors on the day?

[nigelcave]

I would imagine that it would be - the day before, I would be almost certain; and possibly another day or two fore and aft of THE day as well, if the advanced warnings about days of restricted access and no access at Thiepval before and after 1 July is anything to go by.

[Sly]

Is the CWGC cemetery closed to all visitors on the day?

Last year Mrs Stephenson told us that access to the many of the sites at Fromelles will be impossible on that day (and probably the day before as well). Pheseant Wood cemetery, "Cobbers" memorial and VC Corner won't be accessible. From what I understood there's a large chance for other cemetries nearby to be not accessible as well: Le Trou Aid Post, Rue Petillon (?), Rue du bois (?)...

Sly

[nigelcave]

Again, if Thiepval/Somme 1 July is anything to go by, I expect that there will be some sort of park and shuttle arrangement put in place.

[Auimfo]

From the previous posts there seems to be an opinion that if a government agency has the finances, willpower and convenient geography, it can choose to discriminate against another nation when organising Great War centenary commemorations without any consequences.

The geographical location of families who lost relatives at Fromelles must have no influence on whether they should be allowed to attend official commemorations of any Great War events.

The centenary events are a once in a lifetime opportunity for all of us. It must make no difference whether families who wish to remember their lost relatives travel from the far side of the planet or from a neighbouring country to Fromelles. We all want to remember our lost men.

Pheasant Wood cemetery at Fromelles is a CWGC cemetery, its is not an Australian cemetery. I have asked the CWGC to confirm if they have approved the ADVA decision to bar British relatives from the centenary events. To date I have not received an answer to this question and I will continue to pursue this matter

The British occupied the trench systems at Fromelles and neighbouring areas for most of the Great War. In May 1915, the Battle of Aubers Ridge was fought over the same fields as the Battle of Fromelles. The British and Indian Divisions suffered 12000 casualties in less than 24 hours. The AIF involvement in this area was brief and tragic. The British tragedy in the Fromelles area last for most of the duration of the Great War.

The men of the AIF 5th Div and British 61st Div would have been attacking the German trenches in July 1916 knowing full well what had happened 15 months previously. Men of both nations would have been equally fearful of their fate at 6.00 PM on 19th July 1916.

The decision to bar the British from the formal events at Fromelles on 19th July is not just an insult to the men of the 61st Div who fought and died at Fromelles but also an insult to the memories of the men of the other British and Indian Divisions who fought and died in the Fromelles region during the Great War.

The ADVA were contacted about the barring of British attendance and the response I received is breathtaking in its arrogance and does not do justice to the Australian nation. To prioritise the French over any British attendance at the Fromelles is a blatant attempt to remove the British involvement from the battlefield at Fromelles. The writer of the response does not even use the word 'British' just referring to 'other nations'

An earlier post states that the media reports on this matter have been 'cynical, ill-informed and poorly thought through' without giving any example of this. Everything I have read in British and Australian press has been accurate and all quotes correctly used.(where attributed to myself) Everything reported has come though official channels and has been handle by appropriate media agencies.

We are all aware that we live in an era where systemic discrimination, injustices and inconvenient truths can be exposed by basic IT knowledge and a broadband connection.

Regards,

Mick B

Sorry Mick but other than some of the battle facts, I cannot agree with a single thing you've written. Unless of course you are also referring to the British service at Thiepval where no one but British/Irish are permitted to attend? Can't say that I've seen any uproar in the press over that. (and nor do I think there should be).

Since you have stated that all the information in the media is accurate and quoted correctly, can you please refer us to exactly where the words 'ban' or 'barred' has ever been officially used by an Australian Government Agency in reference to the Fromelles service? I'll make it easy for you - they haven't.

To put it simply, all these national services were discussed, planned and organised many months ago between all the relevant nations. The fact that Australia is holding its own service for Australians at Fromelles is not breaking news and nor is the fact that the British service at Thiepval is specifically for British attendance.

To be inclusive of one's own people at our own national service does not imply we're 'banning' everyone else. That's like saying if I watch cricket then I must hate football. We're simply choosing to focus our attention and national remembrance at that place on that day for our people. I'm starting to wonder if the true arrogance doesn't lie with those who just expect to be included in everything because their soldiers died there as well. Of course they did, they died all over the Western Front - we know that. But this one's not about you- it's about our country and our losses, exclusively for us.

As for you becoming upset by the DVA response referring to 'other nations' and not 'British'.....are you forgetting there were other participants in the battle - the Germans?

I'm really tired of all the misguided indignation stemming from some rather misleading journalism that was simply looking for a headline.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Seadog]

Why get hot under the collar about this, we all know just what these events are like with the "great and good" etc. Far better to visit and pay your respects when everyone has left and do so in quiet contemplation and respect for all the soldiers who died in that war to end wars. Personally I would not waste my time attending any "official" ceremony.

Norman

[phil andrade]

Are we in Britain looking for a slight where none was intended ?

The action at Fromelles on July 19th 1916 was a preponderantly Australian tragedy .

If the thing develops into a demonstration of Mel Gibson syndrome Pom bashing, then we have a grievance. Otherwise, why should we complain ?

If New Zealanders decide to have their own special get together at Passchendaele in October next year, then will there be a fuss ?

I hope not.

Phil ( PJA )

[nigelcave]

Tim: re Post 19: it is NOT only the British and the Irish at Thiepval - v limited numbers, certainly, in comparison; but other nationalities could (can?) get places, as I understand it. When I last heard there were places for forty Canadians, for example.

That's not really the point , however. I think a small representational number of others should have been included, if only to avoid high emotions. It is going to be bad enough with cemetery and road closures all over the place on the Somme on 1st July (and before and after) - and not just for Thiepval; the process will presumably be repeated whenever the South Africans commemorate at DW, presumably in mid July; and for the Australians again at Pozieres at about the time of the Fromelles event. It seems that Fromelles has uniquely stirred the pot this year.

This is the price that has to be paid if we want recognition of the sacrifices of the men on the front a hundred years ago; it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation and I have considerable sympathy for the organisers of these events - not least the poor French sous prefet and prefet.

I wonder whether NZ is going to do anything for 15 September? And possibly the Canadians at Courcelette at about the same time? Are the French doing anything special for the Somme themselves, given their 200,000 or so casualties over the course of the battle?

I cannot remember such excitement over the Indian event at Neuve Chapelle last year (did Pakistan/Bangladesh/Nepal/Sri Lanka/Britain - remember there were regular British infantry battalions in the Indian Corps - etc get invited?).

[Auimfo]

Happy to be corrected on that Nigel - although everywhere I read says it was only open to British, Irish and French - but can anyone tell us how many positions for the Australian public (not representatives) have been allocated at Thiepval?

In addition, the Fromelles service can only accomodate 3,500 attendees while the Thiepval service is for at least 16,000. That equates 40 Canadians (they're not official reps are they?) to 0.25% of the invited public.

Simply put, people have to realise and accept that the Australian service is at Fromelles and the British one at Thiepval and stop making media mountains out of molehills.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[nigelcave]

I honestly do not have the foggiest, Tim - I think, but cannot be sure, that South Africa got a few more as the SA missing are commemorated at Thiepval. There might be one or two official Canadian representatives, but they have their own thing going on down the road at BH the same day (but see below for problems with that one!).

I suppose the problem is that Fromelles is, if this does not seem ridiculous, a 'battle' site; Thiepval is a national memorial (well, two nations if one considers SA and GB, plus it is specifically a Franco-Britannique memorial). I don't think that there would be too much argument about the Windmill at Pozieres and an Australian 'only' ceremony there [there's a problem straight away - the Aussies are having ceremonies at both and Fromelles can hardly be described as the Somme, although the reason for fighting it was consequent upon the offensive there]; Delville Wood is a little more problematic; NZ will be fine if they 'keep' to their memorial outside Longueval (cannot see where else they could do anything, except possibly at Caterpillar Valley Cemetery, where their missing are commemorated). Beaumont Hamel would be interesting if restricted only to Newfoundlanders - even more problematic if restricted to Canadians, as the CEF was nowhere near the place on 1st July, but now administers and finances the site (this restriction, by the way, and I hasten to add, does not apply in this case). I do not think there would be too much angst over a Canadian only affair at Courcelette in September, if that is going to happen. I think the problem here is that at Fromelles two nations (plus the Germans, of course) were specifically involved in this very limited, if also very bloody, and effectively one day, action at Fromelles.

I think the point should also be taken that Australians, generally, by definition will have to come a long way (obvious exceptions are the very considerable number of Australians who are in northern Europe at the moment for whatever reason - student, work, gap year etc); whilst on the other hand it is a hop, skip and a jump for most Brits. Personally I have no problem if the Australians, who after all are going through considerable hoops to organise the commemorative event (and are paying for it!), take the overwhelming share of space. I just happen to think that it was unfortunate that the wider ramifications were not considered, given the very unusual nature of Fromelles 1916, and a little leeway built into the system.

Arras 1917 is not on the British government's list, so far as I know, for a big event next year; of course there will be lots happening at Vimy at the same time. The Arras Memorial situation is, in any case, complicated by the co-location of the Air Services Memorial. Given that the Australians will presumably make something of Bullecourt, there will probably not be the same possibilities of getting people's backs up. So maybe we can have a 'peaceful' start to the commemoration season in 2017 - until we get to June and July, with both Messines (good grief - UK, Aus, NZ, and Rep of Ireland) and the start of Third Ypres (add in Canada to the Messines list)!

[Waddell]

I suppose the problem is that Fromelles is, if this does not seem ridiculous, a 'battle' site; Thiepval is a national memorial (well, two nations if one considers SA and GB, plus it is specifically a Franco-Britannique memorial). I don't think that there would be too much argument about the Windmill at Pozieres and an Australian 'only' ceremony there [there's a problem straight away - the Aussies are having ceremonies at both and Fromelles can hardly be described as the Somme, although the reason for fighting it was consequent upon the offensive there]; Delville Wood is a little more problematic; NZ will be fine if they 'keep' to their memorial outside

Arras 1917 is not on the British government's list, so far as I know, for a big event next year; of course there will be lots happening at Vimy at the same time. The Arras Memorial situation is, in any case, complicated by the co-location of the Air Services Memorial. Given that the Australians will presumably make something of Bullecourt, there will probably not be the same possibilities of getting people's backs up. So maybe we can have a 'peaceful' start to the commemoration season in 2017 - until we get to June and July, with both Messines (good grief - UK, Aus, NZ, and Rep of Ireland) and the start of Third Ypres (add in Canada to the Messines list)!

According to the Anzac Centenary Calendar for next year it appears that Polygon Wood in September will be their only commemoration on the Western Front for 2017. There does not appear to be anything planned for Bullecourt that is easily findable on the internet (if anyone knows otherwise please let me know). Apart from the Bullecourt battles Messines, Menin Road and Broodseinde surely are worthy of an official service. I understand the importance of Fromelles and Pozieres but can't help but feel that perhaps too many eggs are being put into one basket with these events.

Calendar-

http://www.anzaccentenary.gov.au/events

Scott