Map reference or not ?

[busterwood]

Can anybody help with this it has greatly puzzled me, states possibly where my Great Uncle lies ????

The attached image has what looks like a Trench Map reference, can anyone de-code it and let me know any information as to its whereabouts ??

[johnboy]

I think it is the map reference for the cemetry.

Edit. If you mean under where found you need to find the sheet number. This might be in the war diary. You could try to find where he was around his death date. If he is shown as KIA that date should do but if shown DOW you might need to go back a few days and maybe find the nearesr FA or CCS.

[jay dubaya]

Chances are its sheet 67C....sadly none existent on McMasters'

[Phil Evans]

The references against the names have the sheet number missing from the front. It should be Sheet 57c (not 67c).

This link should be centered roughly on the cemetery.

Phil

[Phil Evans]

The location of the cemetery, by putting the full co-ordinates into this site

Edit: It does not land bang on - the cemetery is slightly South of the red square

[johnboy]

As above. Overlaid onto google earth. The cemetry is north of the figure 36

[jay dubaya]

It should be Sheet 57c (not 67c).

Phil

ahhh well in that case here we go...

[clk]

Hi jay dubaya,

Just in case he's the man whose cross was found at 57c.K.27.b.3.6, would you care to do the honours?

busterwood - if you'd like to get an adjustable trench/modern overlay for the original location of where the cross was found (as per the type of view that johnboy posted), it would be worth going to the NLS website.

For a cross at 57c.P.18.b.2.9 in the "select a map/map series" search box, you'll need to select one that is listed with "57C.SE" and a date.

For the cross at 57c.K.27.b.3.6 in the "select a map/map series" search box, you'll need to select one that is listed with "57C.NE" and a date

If you were to need any help with interpreting map references, the LLT will be able to help.

If you post your great uncles name, it might be possible that forum pals could dig out some more info on him for you. No guaranties though!

Good luck with your research.

Regards to both.

Chris

[busterwood]

Many Thanks Chris, found out from another reply sheet No is 57c, and yes KIA and moved when recovered, but body along with three others never had a proper burial at Hermies... More research I'm affraid

Geoff

I think it is the map reference for the cemetry.

Edit. If you mean under where found you need to find the sheet number. This might be in the war diary. You could try to find where he was around his death date. If he is shown as KIA that date should do but if shown DOW you might need to go back a few days and maybe find the nearesr FA or CCS.

Found out a mistake, should've been 57c, Many Thanks for your help Geoff

Chances are its sheet 67C....sadly none existent on McMasters'

[busterwood]

More brilliant information Chris, I am totally astounded by your knowledge, again Many,Many thanks. War diaries are a must to the lead up to Arthur's death

Honourably yours

Geoff

Hi jay dubaya,

Just in case he's the man whose cross was found at 57c.K.27.b.3.6, would you care to do the honours?

busterwood - if you'd like to get an adjustable trench/modern overlay for the original location of where the cross was found (as per the type of view that johnboy posted), it would be worth going to the NLS website.

For a cross at 57c.P.18.b.2.9 in the "select a map/map series" search box, you'll need to select one that is listed with "57C.SE" and a date.

For the cross at 57c.K.27.b.3.6 in the "select a map/map series" search box, you'll need to select one that is listed with "57C.NE" and a date

If you were to need any help with interpreting map references, the LLT will be able to help.

If you post your great uncles name, it might be possible that forum pals could dig out some more info on him for you. No guaranties though!

Good luck with your research.

Regards to both.

Chris

[busterwood]

Phil, Thanks you so much, this is absolutely brilliant.... Geoff

The location of the cemetery, by putting the full co-ordinates into this site

Hermies Hill Cemetery.jpg

Edit: It does not land bang on - the cemetery is slightly South of the red square

[busterwood]

Guys,

to all of you who have given me so much information, I am indebted.... I have taken a look at some of the overlays for the period and the locality judging from the rough dates when inputting for the info, it shows where my Great Uncle fell with three others as per 57c.P.18.b.2.9, this is around 6km from the nearest forward trench layout of 11th May ??

Was there anything nearer to where he fell on 1st May 1917, seems a long way from safety, or am I being pessimistic ??

More help would be gratefully received Gents.

I am totally honoured by all your knowledge

Kindest Geoff

[johnboy]

Men did not need to be at the frontline to get killed. Perhaps German artillery was aiming behind the lines to cause disruption e.g disabling a railway or roads to make supplies and communications more difficult.

[Phil Evans]

Geoff,

Note that the sheet refers to Memorial Crosses found (without bodies).

Have you checked the war diary? It is possible that they were erected, for instance at a Battalion HQ, in the knowledge that their bodies could not be recovered for burial.

Phil

[busterwood]

Geoff,

Note that the sheet refers to Memorial Crosses found (without bodies).

Have you checked the war diary? It is possible that they were erected, for instance at a Battalion HQ, in the knowledge that their bodies could not be recovered for burial.

Phil

No not yet Phil

my next step to find out where, when and the lead up to his death.... NB it does state on the attachment from CWGC that the bodies were found at 57c.P.18.b.2.9, three dead, one wounded who died at a later date (4 days after).

This would suggest to me, they were recovered ?? On 17th January1920 at 57c.K.27.b.3.6 when CWGC were marking plots, that no bodies were available for burial, just crosses found, puzzled to say the least, either blown up in the meantime or like you state, crosses taken to cemetery but not laid to rest there ??? War Diary may help, or any suggestions where I could go next. Maybe Medic evacuation reports, as one was found wounded and must have been moved to FAP somewhere ??

Geoff

Men did not need to be at the frontline to get killed. Perhaps German artillery was aiming behind the lines to cause disruption e.g disabling a railway or roads to make supplies and communications more difficult.

War Diaries next, I'm getting my teeth into this. TY again, Geoff

[clk]

If you have, or can get access to Ancestry:

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows that he was born in, and a resident of Leyland, Lancs., when he enlisted at Stockport, Lancs. It has him as "killed in action".*

He does not appear to have any surviving service papers.

His Soldiers' Effects record also shows him as being "killed in action". It shows that both his outstanding pay, and his war gratuity were paid to his father - William.

From the size of his war gratuity payment it can be calculated (using forum pal Craig's calculator) that he enlisted circa September 1914.

From his Victory/British War Medal roll, he only served in an active theatre of war with the 12th King's Liverpool Regiment

From his 14/15 Star Medal roll he first arrived in France with the battalion on 24th July 1915. This is the date that the battalion itself arrived at 12 midnight at Boulogne, so he was not a reinforcement.

Either he did not make a will, or it doesn't survive.

*The term "killed in action", compared to "died of wounds" in records, seems to be generally accepted as the difference between not having received some kind of medical attention, or having received some. Therefore, it would seem probable that he was buried very near to where he received his fatal injury, rather than being passed through a medical evacuation chain, subsequently dying, and being buried.

The war diary for the 12th Battalion for 1st May 1917 isn't that helpful - it doesn't record any casualties and only says that they were based at Bois De Havrincourt and that "Battn. in line facing HAVRINCOURT village, with 3 Coys. in front line trenches and remaining Coy. in Reserve".

The (61st) Brigade HQ diary, and particularly the (20th) Divisional HQ diary contain a number of maps that show how the front was pushed forward in the preceding weeks. The latter includes a map dated 14th May 1917 (p362/648) which shows the development of a defence scheme, and indicates a "line partially dug" at (or immediately adjoining) the map reference where his cross was found.

This may be him in the 1911 census

Regards

Chris

[busterwood]

If you have, or can get access to Ancestry:

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows that he was born in, and a resident of Leyland, Lancs., when he enlisted at Stockport, Lancs. It has him as "killed in action".*

He does not appear to have any surviving service papers.

His Soldiers' Effects record also shows him as being "killed in action". It shows that both his outstanding pay, and his war gratuity were paid to his father - William.

From the size of his war gratuity payment it can be calculated (using forum pal Craig's calculator) that he enlisted circa September 1914.

From his Victory/British War Medal roll, he only served in an active theatre of war with the 12th King's Liverpool Regiment

From his 14/15 Star Medal roll he first arrived in France with the battalion on 24th July 1915. This is the date that the battalion itself arrived at 12 midnight at Boulogne, so he was not a reinforcement.

Either he did not make a will, or it doesn't survive.

*The term "killed in action", compared to "died of wounds" in records, seems to be generally accepted as the difference between not having received some kind of medical attention, or having received some. Therefore, it would seem probable that he was buried very near to where he received his fatal injury, rather than being passed through a medical evacuation chain, subsequently dying, and being buried.

The war diary for the 12th Battalion for 1st May 1917 isn't that helpful - it doesn't record any casualties and only says that they were based at Bois De Havrincourt and that "Battn. in line facing HAVRINCOURT village, with 3 Coys. in front line trenches and remaining Coy. in Reserve".

The (61st) Brigade HQ diary, and particularly the (20th) Divisional HQ diary contain a number of maps that show how the front was pushed forward in the preceding weeks. The latter includes a map dated 14th May 1917 (p362/648) which shows the development of a defence scheme, and indicates a "line partially dug" at (or immediately adjoining) the map reference where his cross was found.

This may be him in the 1911 census

Regards

Chris

Again makes for excellent reading Chris and yet more information gleaned from you, much appreciated again

Thank You

Geoff