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Remembered Today:

German burials in Greenwich Cemetery


Phil Evans

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Well done Phil,

The point in the town clerk's letter is what I was wondering about when I asked if there were burials on top.

(There is a recent case involving this difficulty. One of the unidentified dead from the Kings Cross disaster has subsequently been identified. However the family (when last I heard) have been unable to exhume his body and reinter it as another (still) unidentified casualty is buried on top.)

Roger M.

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Very interesting, thank you for sharing the details.
Maybe if the VDK would be informed about this, they could state the correct cemetery in their database (for the soldiers which surely have not been removed).

(If there are no other issues – I am thinking about Jan’s comment).
Christine

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Hi Phil

As was suggested in an earlier post, almost all burial registers have notations added when exhumations are made. Several Belgians and Canadian repatriations for example at Greenwich we have looked at all have notes to that effect. None of the men you have listed have had anything added to the entries however some cemeteries have more than one burial register. All appear to have normal registers but some also have index registers which are normally alphabetical, in the sense of all the A's are together and so on, rather than each name being alphabetical and then a year added for reference. Something might be there but it is most likely that the suggestion earlier re common ground seems the most logical answer. In the cases of Hoft, Haberland, Rzydke, they were all the first burials in each grave, Ritter was second, Lohofer was fifth of nine, and so on, and none of them were the last burial in each plot.

By the same token none of the German names in the registers have had anything added either which is most unusual. Hammer, from your other list is mentioned on the N/A Memorials Moved schedule but we have not checked them all. All came from the Royal Herbert Hospital, but that in itself is not unusual from that area.

What we do know is that in many areas in London, especially St.Pancras for example, there is a big service plot with CH's but sadly there are no burials beneath them. All the burials are elsewhere in the cemetery, almost all in common ground with up to 50 or 60 internments in each plot. St. Patrick's in Leytonstone is another with no burials in and the need to commemorate in common with the other casualties who had CH's on their graves may have seemed a good idea at the time, but it would seem that names on a screen wall turned out later to be a more cost effective way for CWGC to ensure the names were listed in situ at Greenwich. Perhaps the same idea should have been used at Cannock Chase so that all the casualties could be commemorated together.

Well done for even identifying the plots let alone taking the pics there, as anyone who has tramped round Greenwich Cemetery will be able to testify to.

I assume you have the cemetery burial records pages for your men, but if not let me know as I have copies of them

Kind regards

Steve

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Well done Phil,

The point in the town clerk's letter is what I was wondering about when I asked if there were burials on top.

(There is a recent case involving this difficulty. One of the unidentified dead from the Kings Cross disaster has subsequently been identified. However the family (when last I heard) have been unable to exhume his body and reinter it as another (still) unidentified casualty is buried on top.)

Roger M.

Thanks Roger.

Yes, it did look like their would have been extreme difficulties nearly 50 years on. I had to have a re-read of Section 25, to pick up the point about the relatives of burials that were likely to be disturbed being notified and furthermore, requiring their consent. Back in 1920, when the Commonwealth casualties were being re-interred, this part seems to have been glossed over, or at least, I have never seen any evidence of it, although it was stipulated for private, non-military cases. As i think I stared in an earlier post, some common graves were re-opened two and three times, due to a lack of co-ordination between the various member countries and the War Office.

Phil

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Very interesting, thank you for sharing the details.

Maybe if the VDK would be informed about this, they could state the correct cemetery in their database (for the soldiers which surely have not been removed).

(If there are no other issues – I am thinking about Jan’s comment).

Christine

Thanks Christine.

Much as I would like to and I have collaborated with the CWGC in the past, I am a bit hesitant with regards to the VDK, for two reasons.

Firstly, I have a zero command of the German language. Secondly, from a couple of posts from both yourself and Jan earlier in this thread, I get the feeling that it may not fit in with their scheme of things. My impression, without wishing to malign the excellent work that they have done, is that they may have set out with a vision that, in reality, was not ascertainable. Am I correct in thinking that they wanted every German national, who was a casualty of the wars, buried in a recognised national military cemetery? As my recent work has proved, they certainly had all the information to be able to record the actual burials, even though it was not viable to move them.

I welcome your and Jan's thoughts (and anyone else who is familiar with the VDK's policies).

Phil

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Thanks Steve.

Your post intrigues me, as we seem to cover some similar ground. One immediate question - what is the N/A Memorials Moved schedule?

Thanks, I do now have access to the burial registers, having dumped Ancestry and used what I saved on a subscription to Deceased Online, as I concentrate on Greenwich, Lewisham (Ladywell, Brockley & Hither Green) and Nunhead cemeteries.

The Nunhead registers have no records of exhumations at all, which was the cause of some controversy a couple of years ago over whether, or not, the Commonwealth plots contained empty graves. That was where I first got involved in exhumations.

Ladywell is another of those cemeteries with an area of CH's, in an ugly pattern in my opinion, with no burials beneath them, although it also has a screen wall.

Phil

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Hi Phil

I have a handwritten note saying that Deceased Online had indicated the Schedule was part of some records they copied from the National Archive, but D/O, as with most sites, they often have errors which we try to correct and it may be some misinformation.

If you send me a personal message I can let you know what we are doing lurking around Ladywell, Grove Park, Camberwell etc.

Regards

Steve

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Steve,

I know now which records you are talking about. I remember seeing them on the D/O listings. I haven't come across them as yet.

I have found it difficult to search some names due to transcription errors and have had to be imaginative at times, Nunhead in particular.

PM sent.

Phil

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Phil

I have sent a reply also.

I have asked that D/O put in a search facility so you can search by location and they say they are looking into it. !!!

Regards

Steve

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Phil

I have sent a reply also.

I have asked that D/O put in a search facility so you can search by location and they say they are looking into it. !!!

Regards

Steve

Some form of cemetery search facility would be a welcome addition.

Phil

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Hi,

Well, one can try to provide the information to the VDK. I do not think it is a problem to do this in English. I have contacted the VDK only in family matters and think that they really tried to help – at least when one continues asking.

Even if the VDK of course has no influence on the marking of German WW1 graves in British cemeteries (as I understood it – and has had no routines to put forwards such issues to the CWGC), they should be able to add the correct information in their database –one should think. But it would be interesting to hear which experience Jan has had.

I add a link to a PDF file by the VDK about Cannock Chase: http://www.volksbund.de/fileadmin/redaktion/BereichInfo/BereichInformationsmaterial/KGS/Themenhefte/Cannock_Chase_2013.pdf (in German and English). Here you can read about the VDK version on from where reburials have been taken place and from where not (p. 5).

Christine

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I have been scanning through the rest of HO 282/21 this afternoon. Below are the relevant extracts from the multitude of correspondence. I will post my comments later.

From a meeting chaired by the IWGC with the Home Office and other Gvt. Depts on 5th Feb 1960.

...... Graves in Common Ground. The Volksbund had been informed of the difficulty of obtaining permission to exhume the remains of certain German war graves which were situated in common ground and in which more than one burial had been made. They were willing in such cases to arrange for commemoration of the casualties concerned in a Book of Remembrance to be placed at Cannock Chase. Miss Bristow said that the Home Office would be prepared to consider with local burial authorities whether the agreement of the relatives of other persons buried in common graves with German servicemen could be obtained so that exhumation could be authorised. It was agreed that the Commission would communicate with the Home Office in due course on the subject.

Letter from the IWGC to the Home Office dated 28th March 1960

...... Another point which is outstanding relates to German war burials in common graves in cemeteries in this country. We are looking at the particulars which we hold of these burials and we will be writing to you about this again.

Letter from the CWGC to the Home Office dated 28th June 1960

..... We have agreed lists of German burials for transfer to Cannock Chase with the Volksbund. We have also agreed with them that the German graves which are not in Commission plots or do not fall to be transferred to Cannock Chase will be abandoned as far as the Commission is concerned.

Letter from the CWGC to the Home Office dated 10th October 1960

..... With regard to the fourth paragraph of your letter, [6th October 1960] two separate problems exist. Firstly, there are the German burials which are in common ground in certain cemeteries in this country. Secondly, there are the German burials which were made in graves also containing dead of British or other nationality. We have induced the Germans to desist from pressing for the right to exhume burials in either of these categories .........

Letter from the CWGC to the Home Office dated 4th January 1961

....... With regards to the enquiries you have received from local authorities, particularly those at Greenwich and Streatham Park, concerning cases where German remains are situated in common graves, or where exhumation would involve disturbance of other remains, this point is covered in the 2nd paragraph of Mr Dolan’s letter to you of 10th October [see above] since when the Volksbund have informed us that they will not press for the removal of German remains in these cases ........

..... The schedule of graves in Greenwich and Streatham Park which we provided to you for the purpose of the issue of licences to exhume does not, according to our information, include any graves situated in common ground or where exhumation would involve disturbance of other remains.

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  • 2 weeks later...

From the above extracts, I think it is fair to say that the graves in Plots A and B were abandoned and ceased to be classed as war graves. Due mainly to British burial legislation and pressure from the CWGC, it was not feasible for the VDK to pursue any attempt to exhume the men in these graves. The CWGC also came to an agreement with the VDK that they would not have any responsibility to maintain them. Bear in mind that the CWGC had long ago erected the Screen Wall, as they could not maintain the British graves in these plots. From the online documentation, it appears that it had never been an option.

What should have happened, is that a Book of Remembrance should have been set up at Cannock Chase for all the men who remained buried in common graves throughout the UK.

If anyone is familiar with Cannock Chase, I would appreciate confirmation, or otherwise, as to whether this happened. Also, if it did, whether it referenced the place of burial. The VDK documents that Christine found, lead me to doubt it.

Phil

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Thank you for all the information on this case. It has been very interesting for me to follow this.
I wonder if the relatives of German soldiers buried in Greenwich could get this information from the VDK if they would ask for information on individual soldiers.
One thing is that the information is not officially available on the VDK website (which I think it should be), another if it is available at all.

Would be interesting to hear about a book of remembrance.

Christine

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