Jump to content

Remembered Today:

Mosin Nagant - differences between 1891 model and 1891/30


depaor01
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I am hoping to get hold of a deactivated 1891 Mosin Nagant to display as part of a 1916 Rising exhibition. I understand that a stock of this weapon, captured by the Germans from the Russians at the Battle of Tannenberg, was sent to the Irish Volunteers by Germany on the Aud which of course ended up at the bottom of the sea having been scuttled.

Having researched the weapon, I now find that it was also used all through the Second World War, designated the 1891/30.

Is there any visible difference between the 1891 and the 1891/30?

I'd like to be as accurate as possible in the model displayed.

Also if anyone has any idea where I could hold of one I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The M.91/30 bayonet uses a spring attachment device, while the M.1890 bayonet is a straightforward socket job, and so I imagine there could well be a difference in the muzzle area.

Trajan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

World Wide Arms have WW2 dated de-activated examples on offer at £188 plus postage.

Mike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are differences and WW1 examples particular ex-Finnish are not that hard to come by or expensive.

Search for Mosin Nagant Net or similar for details. I cannot attach a link as it is a banned site on my work computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The foresight is the most obvious visible difference on the 91/30.

The 91/30 is also @3" shorter than the 1891 Infantry (3 line ) Rifle being the length of the earlier dragoon rifle.

Most 91/30s also have round receivers whilst the earlier 1891 rifles have hexagonal receivers there is also a difference in the rear sight arrangement

the 1891 rifle is 1304mm (51.25")

the 91/30 is 1240mm (48.75")

If it would be useful I can take side by side pictures of both for you. But yes anyone who knew what they were looking at would notice the difference pretty quickly

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave, apologies for the delay responding. Between making that offer and now I did something stupid to my knee which has rendered me somewhat immobile and thus it's a bit difficult to take decent pictures. However for now:

post-14525-0-82860100-1452643733_thumb.j

A comparison of the two types side by side showing basic difference in length and format 91/30 on left 1891 on right

post-14525-0-20898100-1452643734_thumb.j

Foresights side by side 91/30 on left

post-14525-0-07106600-1452643736_thumb.j

Foresight 91/30

post-14525-0-57298700-1452643734_thumb.j

Foresight 1891

post-14525-0-94617000-1452643734_thumb.j

rear sights side by side

post-14525-0-70762600-1452643735_thumb.j post-14525-0-34798900-1452643735_thumb.j

Round 91/30 receiver (this is a 1936 produced rifle) ---------- Hexagonal 1891 receiver (this is a 1916 produced Russian - note the imperial eagle has been peened out)

You can also see some differences in the rear sight here.

Hope these are of use. Be aware there are several variations of stock fitted made more complicated by later Finnish use and restocking. The Finns also produced their own versions later which differ yet again. The sub varieties are sufficient to keep the most ardent collector busy but I do not pretend to know much about them - I have enough trouble with Enfields.

PS a couple of years ago I took a group of US students to Dublin and one of our projects was to reproduce a selection of the best known 1916 photos as closely as possible - it was a fun exercise and the students enjoyed it a lot. A good way to follow the main events of the rising.

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

Sorry to hear about the knee :( - hope it gets better soon!

Thanks for those photographs, but, any chance of seeing how the different model bayonets were fitted? I have several 'booty' M.91's, and I can understand their method of fitting, and know that they were intended to be there permanently (well, while in Russian hands at least!). But I don't have a M.91/30, and apart from knowing from photographs that it has some kind of spring plunger fitting, I have simply no idea how it stayed on!

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are superb images, Chris, dodgy knee or not. Explains everything I need to know.

Get well soon!

Ta very much.

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

Sorry to hear about the knee :( - hope it gets better soon!

Thanks for those photographs, but, any chance of seeing how the different model bayonets were fitted? I have several 'booty' M.91's, and I can understand their method of fitting, and know that they were intended to be there permanently (well, while in Russian hands at least!). But I don't have a M.91/30, and apart from knowing from photographs that it has some kind of spring plunger fitting, I have simply no idea how it stayed on!

Julian

The "spring plunger" by it's location on the socket was compressed by the front sight base and snapped out to lock when the bayonet was rotated to it's proper position. Removal? The plunger was compressed and the bayonet rotated and pulled off the rifle.

Because of the front sight on the 91/30 rifle, the M1891 bayonet with its rotating locking ring will not fit the 91/30, it will only fit a rifle with the M1891 front sight. The 91/30 bayonet will fit either rifle.

Edited by Gew88/05
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

Thanks for those photographs, but, any chance of seeing how the different model bayonets were fitted? I have several 'booty' M.91's, and I can understand their method of fitting, and know that they were intended to be there permanently (well, while in Russian hands at least!). But I don't have a M.91/30, and apart from knowing from photographs that it has some kind of spring plunger fitting, I have simply no idea how it stayed on!

Thank you for the wishes...

Hope these will suffice.

post-14525-0-59895000-1452712858_thumb.j

post-14525-0-39133800-1452712859_thumb.j post-14525-0-00297600-1452712859_thumb.j

Both bayonets compared

post-14525-0-74000200-1452712859_thumb.j

M1891 in place

post-14525-0-07909200-1452712860_thumb.j

91/30 in place

and to show Gew88/05's point:

post-14525-0-44341000-1452712860_thumb.j

91/30 bayo fitted to the 1891

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

I somehow missed this one - so, "Thank you"!

Off topic, I know, but I haven't catalogued my 1890's yet. I suspect one or two may be Austrian knock-offs, but all of them came with either Austrian or German scabbards.

Julian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Here is the butt stamp cartouche on a captured 1891 Nagant rifle. It is the Imperial German eagle with the words DEUTSCHES REICH around the circumference.

post-43602-0-81790200-1454015757_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...