Single parent

[Berkohis]

I am researching Albert Kirby 9th Battalion Royal Fusiliers who was killed in action 7/7/1916. He had previously been with the 1st Loyal North Lancashire regiment in the Boar War. He had served his time in the colours and the reserves. He married in 1904 and had at least four children. I think (waiting for death certificate) that his wife died in 1913 so he would have been a single parent. Would he have been conscripted or would he have volunteered. There are no papers and his medal card doesn't show any stars. Any help with this topic would be great. Thanks

[IPT]

I believe that the SR pefix on his service number (SR/7643) indicates that he was called up from the Special Reserve. See 2. - http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm

[Medaler]

A search of the medal rolls themselves might just yield up a date of entry into theatre.

Regards,

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Soldiers Effects shows him as S/7643

His war gratuity (£10 10s gross) shows he had 23 months qualifying service. This means he enlisted no later than August 1914.

Craig

[clk]

From his Soldiers' Effects record it appears that following his death outstanding pay (in 1917) and his war gratuity (in 1919) was paid to his sole legatee - Mrs Florence Anderson - no relationship recorded*. Given what you know, I would take that as being indicative that his wife had already died, and that Florence wasn't an immediate family member, but may well have been bringing up his children.

* In the register, immediate family members are usually recorded as being widow/mother/sister/father/brother, even if not having the same surname.

He appears to have a surviving Will (£10), but it probably won't add much to what you already know, or who Florence was. I did wonder if she might have been an aunt, or something like that.

Good luck with your research.

Regards

Chris

[Berkohis]

Hi, I'm not quite sure of the etiquette of this site for thanking people.

IPT - thanks for the link, very useful. I had assumed that was what SR. ment but had not read the details you attached before. Very helpful, thanks.

Mike - thanks, I have checked the Medal Rolls but I don't thing they give anymore detail.

Craig - that's really interesting I had no ideal you could calculate the length of service from the soldiers effects. I assume that because he did receive a 1914-15 star he must have initially been based at home.

Chris - thanks, that's the assumption I'd made but I'm struggling to find a connection with a Florence Anderson. But I'll keep trying. I think I will try for his will just in case there is more information.

All, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. Albert was born in the town where I live but is not remembered on our War Memorial. He had such a sad life, I want to make sure that he is remembered somewhere and his full story is told. You have really helped with this. Thanks Janice

[ss002d6252]

The gratuity is really useful as it was paid based on the length of qualifying service and so can reveal many details that are missing without service records.

It can be a bit odd at times to work with as there are some exceptions to the general rules but it's an invaluable resource.

Craig

[Medaler]

The other long winded way of determining an enlistment date is to trawl the silver war badge roll looking for similar service numbers. The SWB roll gives date of enlistment. The process is a bit more art than science and can either give stunningly accurate results or be a complete red herring!

The other drawback with a Regiment like his is that they had loads of battalions and therefore lots and lots of men - that makes the SWB trawl a VERY long process.

The other thought is to look for service/pension records for men either side of his number. Again however you may find nothing.

Sorry my first thought proved to be a dud - but it does work sometimes - honest!

Regards,

Mike

[Berkohis]

The other long winded way of determining an enlistment date is to trawl the silver war badge roll looking for similar service numbers. The SWB roll gives date of enlistment. The process is a bit more art than science and can either give stunningly accurate results or be a complete red herring!

The other drawback with a Regiment like his is that they had loads of battalions and therefore lots and lots of men - that makes the SWB trawl a VERY long process.

The other thought is to look for service/pension records for men either side of his number. Again however you may find nothing.

Sorry my first thought proved to be a dud - but it does work sometimes - honest!

Regards,

Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks you for this suggestion. I have taken the men listed above and below him in the WW1 Service Medal and Award Rolls. I've attached a spreadsheet with all the information I can find. Would you agree that I am safe to say that he enlisted betwwen 30 Jan 1912 and 24 Feb 1912? All the men seem to have enlisted at the same barracks in Finsbury. I'm still interestd as to why he didn't enter the Theatre of war earlier, most the men listed either side of him went to France in late 1914 or early 1915. I managed to get a copy of his will which was dated 20/2/1916, do you know if this would be the date that he was sent abroad?

WW1 Service Medal and Award Rolls, Royal Fusiliers Regimental Number Name Battalion Enlistment Date Enlistment Place Entry Theatre War Exit date and reason Comments SR7614 Horace Ballard 4th,8th 22/01/1912 unknown 04/01/1915 Wounded 8/10/1918 SR7624 Frederick Joyce 4th unknown Finsbury 05/01/1915 KIA 22/02/1915 SR7626 Henry Hooker 3rd,5th unknown unknown unknown Deserted 17/09/1917 SR7627 Robert Thomas 3rd 25/01/1912 unknown 06/03/1915 Sickness 17/03/1916 SR7629 Charles Marchant 1st unknown Finsbury 29/11/1914 KIA 09/05/1915 SR7630 John Brown 4th,9th unknown unknown 11/11/1914 unknown SR7631 Richard Maycock 2nd 26/01/1912 Finsbury 16/06/1915 Sickness 23/09/1916 Pension records Exist SR7636 Albert Taylor 4th 30/01/1912 Finsbury 05/01/1915 Wounds 30/01/1917 In Boar war SR7643 Albert Kirby 9th unknown Finsbury unknown KIA 07/07/1916 SR7649 Herbert Gall 4th,10th,11th unknown Finsbury 28/11/1914 KIA 10/08/1917 SR7651 Alfred Maton 4th unknown Finsbury unknown KIA 22/06/1916 SR7655 Edgar Pike 3rd unknown Finsbury 09/02/1915 KIA 09/05/1915 SR7656 Charles Jennings 3rd unknown Finsbury 07/03/1915 KIA 13/04/1915 SR7674 William Julian 4th 24/02/1912 Finsbury 28/11/1914 Deserted 16/06/1917 Papers exist SR7682 Albert Harvey 4th,8th,1st,26th unknown unknown 29/11/1914 unknown SR7688 Albert Edgar Warren 4th unknown unknown unknown unknown BW&V Medals SR7691 Patrick Mullins 4th 11/03/1912 unknown 04/01/1915 Wounded 06/07/1915 SR7702 Joseph Frederick Michaels 7th,8th,22nd,24th unknown unknown unknown unknown BW&V Medals SR7705 George Alfred Mason 4th unknown Finsbury 29/11/1914 Died 16/06/1915 SR7706 Richard Cordell 4th,8th unknown Finsbury 20/12/1914 KIA 19/2/1916 SR7721 Edward Carroll 3rd unknown unknown unknown Deserted 03/12/1915 SR7724 Henry Dacey 3rd unknown Finsbury 19/01/1915 KIA 08/03/1915 SR7727 Henry Plumb 3rd unknown unknown unknown Deserted 03/02/1916 SR7730 Alfred Burton 3rd unknown unknown unknown Deserted 06/12/1915 SR7736 Louis Kaye 9th unknown Finsbury unknown KIA 07/07/1916 Died is intestate

I'm now curious (nothing to do with Albert) as to why there are so many deserters listed. The information about desertion has been taken from the Medal cards, with the exception of William Julian who's papers exist. In this small sample there are 5 out of 25, so 20% deserted. Is that normal? Should I be asking this question on a seperate forum?

Anyway thanks for your help, I think it worked this time.

Sorry for all the questions just typing what's going through my mind.

Thanks Janice

Opps, sorry the spreadsheet doesn't work on here.

[Medaler]

Hi Janice,

This changes some of what we thought we knew, so do you mind if I recap first? Please forgive me if you know some or all of this already, I am just trying to be thorough. Please also note that everything I say is from a general viewpoint rather than my having any specialist knowledge of Royal Fus (don't run away with the idea that I am n expert). In fact, with that in mind, I very much appreciate any other members who want to endorse what I say or blow holes in it. I don't mind folks - that's how I learn!

If you have his enlistment date right (and I am 90% certain that you have), then he joined the Special Reserve before the war and was not "recalled to the Colours" because of his Loyal North Lancs service. If he was a Boer War vet, it is highly likely that he was fully "time expired" from the LNL's and was off their reserve list altogether. As Special Reserve enlistment involved a 6 month training package it was usually (though not universally) taken up by the unemployed. It would certainly have given him a full time soldiers pay for 6 months.

It looks like you can be fairly certain that he enlisted at Finsbury. Not sure which Reserve Btn were associated with Finsbury at that time, but that knowledge would enable you to place him in the right Special Reserve Btn (it will either be 5th, 6th or 7th). Certainly Long Long Trail website has this to say on the 7th Btn:

7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : in Artillery Place, Finsbury.
Landed at Le Havre 24 July 1916.
27 July 1916 : joined the 190th Brigade, 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.

Don't assume he was with them however, you need to eliminate the 5th and 6th as possibilities before you can be certain. On the face of it however, it does look likely.

Your man however did not go overseas with the whole of 7th Btn as he was killed before they left. It looks like he was sent out by one of the reserve Btn's to join the 9th as a reinforcement.

The other strong possibility is that, because of his prior experience in the army, he was retained by one of the SR Btn's to assist in training the enormous mass of completely green recruits that flooded into the army when war was declared. The SR's main function was to train new men to replace casualties in the prewar "Regular" battalions as the war ground away at their numbers. One thing for sure however, he did not join 9th Btn from the start. If he had have done, and landed with them, he would have been in France sooner and earned a 1914-15 Star. By not having any entitlement to that medal, we know that he did not get to France until after 31st December 1915.

There are of course other reasons why he may have been held back at home in the SR. If for example, he had suffered some sort of injury that required a long period of time for recovery.

As for desertion, I really can't comment. A lot might depend on if they were doing a runner before the outbreak of war or after.

Firstly, I hope others on here agree with what I have just said, but I also hope it has helped you investigations Janice.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Berkohis]

Hi Janice,

This changes some of what we thought we knew, so do you mind if I recap first? Please forgive me if you know some or all of this already, I am just trying to be thorough. Please also note that everything I say is from a general viewpoint rather than my having any specialist knowledge of Royal Fus (don't run away with the idea that I am n expert). In fact, with that in mind, I very much appreciate any other members who want to endorse what I say or blow holes in it. I don't mind folks - that's how I learn!

If you have his enlistment date right (and I am 90% certain that you have), then he joined the Special Reserve before the war and was not "recalled to the Colours" because of his Loyal North Lancs service. If he was a Boer War vet, it is highly likely that he was fully "time expired" from the LNL's and was off their reserve list altogether. As Special Reserve enlistment involved a 6 month training package it was usually (though not universally) taken up by the unemployed. It would certainly have given him a full time soldiers pay for 6 months.

It looks like you can be fairly certain that he enlisted at Finsbury. Not sure which Reserve Btn were associated with Finsbury at that time, but that knowledge would enable you to place him in the right Special Reserve Btn (it will either be 5th, 6th or 7th). Certainly Long Long Trail website has this to say on the 7th Btn:

7th (Extra Reserve) Battalion

August 1914 : in Artillery Place, Finsbury.

Landed at Le Havre 24 July 1916.

27 July 1916 : joined the 190th Brigade, 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.

Don't assume he was with them however, you need to eliminate the 5th and 6th as possibilities before you can be certain. On the face of it however, it does look likely.

Your man may even have gone overseas with 7th Btn, been wounded or fallen ill, returned to England, recovered, and been posted to 9th Btn in the field when he returned to active service. That sort of thing happened a lot!

The other strong possibility is that, because of his prior experience in the army, he was retained by one of the SR Btn's to assist in training the enormous mass of completely green recruits that flooded into the army when war was declared. The SR's main function was to train new men to replace casualties in the prewar "Regular" battalions as the war ground away at their numbers. One thing for sure however, he did not join 9th Btn from the start. If he had have done, and landed with them, he would have been in France sooner and earned a 1914-15 Star. By not having any entitlement to that medal, we know that he did not get to France until after 31st December 1915.

There are of course other reasons why he may have been held back at home in the SR. If for example, he had suffered some sort of injury that required a long period of time for recovery.

As for desertion, I really can't comment. A lot might depend on if they were doing a runner before the outbreak of war or after.

Firstly, I hope others on here agree with what I have just said, but I also hope it has helped you investigations Janice.

Warmest regards,

Mike

Thank you Mike

It can't be this one because he was Killed in Action on 7th July 1916. As you can see I'm very green on all this. I just assumed I was only looking for 9th. I wasn't aware of speacial reserve battalions. I'll keep searching.

You are very helpful.

Kind regards

Janice

[Medaler]

Sorry Janice,

I am not sure what you mean by "It can't be this one because he was Killed in Action on 7th July 1916". Especially when your opening post was "I am researching Albert Kirby 9th Battalion Royal Fusiliers who was killed in action 7/7/1916".

I think I have misled you.

That just means that he went overseas from 7th Btn (if indeed he was with 7th rather than 5th or 6th) before the whole Btn moved out. That is highly likely. My fault entirely as I had not compared the 7th Btn's departure date with his date of death.

I have now changed my previous post in the light of my confusing things.

Sincerely sorry about that.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Berkohis]

Thank you Mike, I see what you are saying now. Basically I need to find which reserve battalion was associated with Finsbury. He could have gone to France any time in 1916.

Thanks again

Janice

[Medaler]

Thank you Mike, I see what you are saying now. Basically I need to find which reserve battalion was associated with Finsbury. He could have gone to France any time in 1916.

Thanks again

Janice

Hi Janice,

Yes, he joined the Special reserve pre-war, did his 6 months training, and went back into civilian life on a retainer with the obligation to attend camps and training a few times a year. When war broke out he was mobilised and joined his reserve battalion. From there he was sent to join the 9th (Service) Btn overseas as a reinforcement. Sorry for having led you astray earlier. It's just not the same as having a proper conversation is it?

Warmest regards,

Mike