Guest Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Hello, I am researching 9037 Private Fred Bates (serving under the alias Frank Taylor) of the 1st Battalion Kings Liverpool Regiment. I am at a loss at where to go next in my research. It seems that Frank Taylor was killed by an artillery shell on 15th January 1915 and buried at Le Touret. However no service record survives. However it seems he went to India in 1912 with the army but I am at a loss of where to take my research from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Have you tried forces-war-records.co.uk? A quick look showed "F Taylor 9037 Private"; and under 'Unit' it shows "Alias". That's all it reveals under the free search - to view his record will need a subscription (which I do not have). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Micah I would recommend not using Forces War Records as you will be charged for information you have already gathered for nothing. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 I have the returns form but from there its a bit of a loss and dead end. Would be good to know where he signed up as he was an old contemptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Would be good to know where he signed up as he was an old contemptible. As the service file doesnt exist, that's probably not possible to establish. Have you tried the Regimental Archives? Archives sometimes have information about pre-war regulars that they wouldnt have about wartime recruits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Soldiers Died? Medal Rolls? Soldiers Effects? De Ruvigny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Medal card shows to France 12 8 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Soldiers effects adds nothing apart from his relatives who received monies due , most under the name of Bates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 He's on Forces under Bates 9037 as Fred Bates, born c1886, (served as Taylor) son of William and Ellen Bates of Liverpool , died 12 Jan 1915 serving in 1st Bn. King's (Liverpool Regiment). And under Taylor 9037, exactly the same. I can't see any Medals Roll recording for him under the name Bates, however under Fred Taylor it has him recorded with date of embarkation of 12th Aug 1914 and that he was KIA. However interestingly there is also a record not of Fred Taylor but as Frank Taylor, 9037 of the 1st King's (Liverpool Regiment) in the Medal Rolls with same date of embarkation and he is also recorded with date of death (KIA) as 12th Jan 1915 and having been born in Blackburn, Lancs. And again,,the Register of Soldier's Effects has 9037 recorded as Frank Taylor with same date of death and same battalion/regiment. There's quite a bit of data recorded there, including relatives names, and although I can't make all the names out due to the handwriting, he appears to have had brothers called Albert, John, Edwin and a sister called Annie. There are other names there as well but I can't decipher them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 I'm not sure if you looked here: 9037 suggest that he enlisted about the turn of 1904/1905. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Interesting: 2 King's Liverpool were in India throughout WW1. The date of arrival in theatre suggests that he landed with or for 1 King's Liverpool. Could he have completed his colour service and become a reservist between 1912 and 1914? Have you tried the 1911 census? RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 There is an interesting militia record in findmypast. According to SDGW our man was born in Blackburn. (I wonder which name was the alias?) Frank Taylor (8803), father William, mother Ellen, cotton weaver, 17 years 11 months, enlisted in 4 Militia King's Liverpool on 1 Sept 1904. He joined the (regular) King's Liverpools on 27 October 1904. His address was 2 Bates Street (Blackburn). His "master" was H Carr of Blackburn (Anyone up in cotton mills in Blackburn?) Roger M Ed. I missed this SDGW says that he enlisted in Warrington. (That would be the regular enlistment.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 The 1911 Census shows a Private Frank Taylor (24) single born Blackburn, Lancs, with 2/The Kings Regiment in India. Grace's Guide - 1891 Cotton Mills in Blackburn shows - William Carr, Daisyfield Shed; 442 looms, jacconettes, shirtings, mulls, twills, satteens, stripes, spots, dice checks, plain and coloured handkerchiefs, and cloths, 22 to 56 inches wide JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Hello, I am rather unsure but I am presuming that Frank Taylor was the alias, Franks/Freds brother Luke Bates named his son after his brother which was Fred Bates. To add Luke Bates was mayor of Blackburn twice. The militia connection is interesting and his parents were William and Ellen Bates. I don't know where this alias came from if he was in touch with his family. The story goes that he joined up and because he was not sent to fight he ran away and joined another regiment (which does not seem to be true). The whole side of that family was Blackburn based. Thank you so much for this help. I have been stuck with Frank since 2014 and could not seem to find anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 The 1891 and 1901 censuses show Fred Bates with his parents William and Ellen Bates and a number of siblings living in Blackburn. (One sibling is Luke who is given in the militia record. I think that he increased his age slightly when he enlisted. The censuses suggest that Frederick Bates was born in 1887 or 1888. (ancestry) RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 How is the militia record set out can I ask ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Hello, I am rather unsure but I am presuming that Frank Taylor was the alias, Franks/Freds brother Luke Bates named his son after his brother which was Fred Bates. To add Luke Bates was mayor of Blackburn twice. The militia connection is interesting and his parents were William and Ellen Bates. I don't know where this alias came from if he was in touch with his family. The story goes that he joined up and because he was not sent to fight he ran away and joined another regiment (which does not seem to be true). The whole side of that family was Blackburn based. Thank you so much for this help. I have been stuck with Frank since 2014 and could not seem to find anymore. They are certainly Bates in the censuses and there is a marriage for William Bates and Ellen Little in ancestry. If you think about it he had joined another unit (the militia) and gone on to a fighting regiment but not as dramatically as in the family legend! It is interesting that Fred joined the militia as Frank Taylor, but gave his parents' and brother Luke's forenames (but not surnames). Roger M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 How is the militia record set out can I ask ? The Militia Record is a fairly standard army record starting with the attestation form then things like a medical record, service record (attendance at training, etc.). Since he moved on to the regular army after about a month, although there are a number of pages there is not much on most of them. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Hello Rolt, It would be great to get hold of these records is there a link. I would love to see. He is rather elusive. I know someone on the forum had his medals at one point. But would be great to find something. It makes sense with the Militia and moving on to a fighting regiment so soon. I always thought this was a story which happened closer to WW1 but he was in the army way before this. Would be great to see these documents at some point. I am also puzzled why he gave his family names but an alias for his actual name this seems rather odd to me.Could there have been any other family connection that were in the army ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Frederick Bates Birth Registered: Oct-Nov-Dec 1887, Blackburn 1901 Census: Frederick Bates, (13) Cotton Weaver born Blackburn, living at 56 Peter St, Blackburn with father William (55) Loom Fitter; mother Ellen (49) Cotton Card Roomhand; brother Luke (27) Cotton Weaver; brother John T (22) General Labourer; brother Albert (19) Loom Fitter Labourer; sister Annie (17) Cotton Weaver; brother Arthur (11); brother Edwin (7) JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Hello Rolt, It would be great to get hold of these records is there a link. I would love to see. He is rather elusive. I know someone on the forum had his medals at one point. But would be great to find something. It makes sense with the Militia and moving on to a fighting regiment so soon. I always thought this was a story which happened closer to WW1 but he was in the army way before this. Would be great to see these documents at some point. I am also puzzled why he gave his family names but an alias for his actual name this seems rather odd to me. Could there have been any other family connection that were in the army ? The fmp transcription is here: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo96%2f80%2f1174263 There is a link to the actual files. There are four pages. His choice of fictional age is interesting. He had added about a year. 17 years 11 months would make him eligible to join the regulars about a month later. He gave the forenames but not the surnames of his parents and brother Luke. I think there was a Bates Street in Blackburn at the time. Frederick Bates Birth Registered: Oct-Nov-Dec 1887, Blackburn 1901 Census: Frederick Bates, (13) Cotton Weaver born Blackburn, living at 56 Peter St, Blackburn with father William (55) Loom Fitter; mother Ellen (49) Cotton Card Roomhand; brother Luke (27) Cotton Weaver; brother John T (22) General Labourer; brother Albert (19) Loom Fitter Labourer; sister Annie (17) Cotton Weaver; brother Arthur (11; brother Edwin (7) JP He had probably added a bit over a year to his age on the militia attestation form. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Interesting. There may have been a Bates Street in 1904, but did he make up the address? His family were still at 56 Peter Street in 1911 (census, ancestry). RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 January , 2016 Share Posted 4 January , 2016 1911 census shows a James and Mary Taylor at 3 Bates Street, Blackburn with son Francis aged 15. I can't find No. 2 which probably means it's unoccupied. Does seem an odd coincidence. Rolt968 post#21 I think there was a Bates Street in Blackburn at the time. Rolt968 post#12 His address was 2 Bates Street (Blackburn). Haven't found Bates St in 1901 as yet. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 4 January , 2016 Share Posted 4 January , 2016 No such thing as 2 Bates St, Blackburn on 1901 census. Not listed as inhabited or as unoccupied, simply doesn't exist. Probably doesn't exist in 1911 either (good address for an alias??) James and Mary Taylor are not at No. 3 Bates street in 1901. Bates street is no longer but was somewhere between Accrington Road and Hozier St TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 January , 2016 Share Posted 4 January , 2016 This is a mystery. If he was in contact with his family the only reason to use an alias was for his service with the army for being underage which seems the amount of time he spent in the army would seem crazy to keep. Not to mention what was was he doing in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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