Hedley Malloch Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 What is the correct title and abbreviation for a WW1 Hospital Ship? Is it SS; HS; HMT; or HMTS? I have seen them all used. Many thanks in advance for all help received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 HMHS ? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 Hedley, The correct prefix would be H.M.H.S. {His Majestys' Hospital Ship}, as in H.M.H.S. Garth Castle. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 HMHS is indeed correct for hospital ships commissioned into the Royal Navy. At this distance from my sources I am not entirely sure, but think that if the /Army/ took up a ship for hospital use it would not have been commissioned into the Navy but would have retained its original prefix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 Not all British 'hospital ships' were designated HMHS. For example at Gallipoli, the pressing need to evacuate large numbers of casualties meant that there were some 44 so called 'Black Ships' being used (i.e. merchant vessels hastily pressed into service to meet the unusually high demand for medical transportation). The name 'Black Ships' comes from the fact that these vessels were not officially designated and declared as hospital ships in accordance with the Hague and Geneva Conventions and were not clearly identified by being painted white and marked with green stripes and red crosses on their hulls. They did however carry a full medical staff and their primary purpose was humanitarian. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 I cannot find the source now, but I read an account of a captain who painted? or flew a flag as a hospital ship because he was carrying wounded to Egypt. He was ordered to remove this. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 HMT is the abbreviation for His Majesty's Troopship. I have a recollection that at Gallipoli, some of these ships carried troops in, and wounded out. A Hospital Ship would not be able to carry troops in. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 H.M.T. - Hired Military Transport. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 The Rohilla which started life as a passenger ship was originally an 'S.S' but after requisitioning & conversion at the outset of the war, became an 'H.M.H.S'. The nature of her conversion to a hospital ship was extensive, and, although in reality, as she foundered at Whitby in October '14, only short, was intended as long term unlike those of Michael's (KizmeRD, Post # 5) 'Black Ships' pressed into short term service to cater for urgent evacuation needs. NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Picking up on seaJane's point at Post #4, not one of the naval hospital ships was a commissioned ship of the Royal Navy, they did not fly the White Ensign and did not merit the title "His Majesty's ....". A couple of naval HS, MAINE and BERBICE, sailed under the Blue Ensign post-WW1 as RFAs but all others were Admiralty-chartered merchant ships sailing under the Red Ensign. To answer the question at Post #1, I believe the correct designation of such uncommisioned ships was HS [Hospital Ship] ******. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 The term 'hospital ship' tends to get more widely used than its strict legal definition. The uncommissioned 'black ships' were I guess, more correctly 'Ambulance Transports' i.e. not fitted out to the same high standards as regular HMHSs (which were as their name suggests, proper floating hospitals), however these transport ships would have hurriedly been fitted out for the reception of casualties and they would have had a team of doctors, nurses and orderlies onboard in order to do what they could to care for and comfort the sick and wounded - and undoutedly, a few emergency operations would have been necessary during the voyage home. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Cove Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 HMHS is indeed correct for hospital ships commissioned into the Royal Navy. So is it a general rule that only ships commissioned into the Royal Navy and sailing under the white ensign should properly be given the prefix HM? Prior to WW1 various passenger liners chartered by the Admiralty for use as troopships sailed under the Admiralty Transport Department ensign I believe (blue ensign with horizontal anchor) and these were generally referred to as HMT or HM Transport - including the Rohilla mentioned in Post 9. Was this, strictly speaking, an improper use of the HM prefix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 So is it a general rule that only ships commissioned into the Royal Navy and sailing under the white ensign should properly be given the prefix HM? Prior to WW1 various passenger liners chartered by the Admiralty for use as troopships sailed under the Admiralty Transport Department ensign I believe (blue ensign with horizontal anchor) and these were generally referred to as HMT or HM Transport - including the Rohilla mentioned in Post 9. Was this, strictly speaking, an improper use of the HM prefix? HMHS = His Majesty's Hospital Ship HMT = Hired Military Transport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Cove Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 That is really confusing! Thanks Michael - and for your post on the same topic from July 2015 which I've just found belatedly. There is an interesting thread here about SS or RMS Olympic, which apparently started the war as a Hired Military Transport flying the red ensign and ended it as His Majesty's Transport flying the white ensign. http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=48516 And getting back to the original topic, I note that the Rohilla is referred to as 'Hospital Ship SS Rohilla' on the memorial erected by the owners in Whitby cemetery, which fits with Horatio2's assumption in post #10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 I agree with Horatio about the HS designation. Below is information from TNA MT23/28. Note also there were ships designated as ambulance carriers: Capt Charles Appleton Smith Hospital Ship Aquatania Cunard Steamship Company Capt R De Mare Hospital Ship Delta P & O Steamship Company Capt A H Rostron Ambulance Carrier Alaunia Cunard Steamship Company Capt N R S Hickey Hospital Ship Devanha P & O Steamship Company Capt J Parry Ambulance Carrier Georgiana Leyland Line Capt C W Morgan Ambulance Carrier Arcadian Capt H Blanchard Ambulance Carrier Ionian Capt Harry Carey Ambulance Carrier Itonus British India Steamship Company Capt Alexander H Acheson Hospital Ship Neuralia British India Steamship Company Capt Leonard D Pinkney Hospital Ship Somalia P & O Steamship Company Captain Hamilton Call Hospital Ship Soudan P & O Steamship Company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 That is really confusing! Thanks Michael - and for your post on the same topic from July 2015 which I've just found belatedly. There is an interesting thread here about SS or RMS Olympic, which apparently started the war as a Hired Military Transport flying the red ensign and ended it as His Majesty's Transport flying the white ensign. Lots of confusion on the internet I'm afraid due to the casual repetition of casual school boy errors found on many websites (Titanic included). However the fact remains that there is no such thing as 'His Majesty's Transport', only 'Hired MilitaryTransport' (check it out in any official source material). Also, on the subject of the Rohilla, she started life as ss Rohilla built, owned and operated by British India Steam Navigation Company. She was not taken over by the Admiralty until 1914, so during her time transporting troops (and other paid passengers) out to India she would not have be flying the Admiralty Service Ensign as you described. The Admiralty Service Ensign (Blue defaced with a horizontal anchor) is only used on government owned vessels (which the ss Rohilla pre-1914 wasn't). She would however have flown the white Ensign for a few short months at the start of the war in her role as a RN Hospital Ship in naval service (HMHS Rohilla). And finally, just to clear up matters regarding RMS Olympic - at the start of the war she continued operating as a (civilian) trans-atlantic liner, mostly taking Americans fleeing war-torn Europe back-home. Then as the demand for passenger transport dried-up, she was taken out of civilian service and eventually became a Hired Military Transport (and was involved in taking troops out to Gallipoli). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 H.M.T. - Hired Military Transport. Kath. HMHS = His Majesty's Hospital Ship HMT = Hired Military Transport My understanding was wrong on this, perhaps influenced by earlier period references to a group of ships called HM Indian Troopships, in service until c 1896, such as http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/102985.html, which were commissioned by the Indian Government, Do you know when the terminology HMT Hired Military Transport was introduced? Would it have been following the withdrawal of the Indian Troopships, or before that? In an Australian context, I notice the National Archives of Australia defines HMAT as His Majesty's Australian Transport http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/abbreviations.aspx Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 If only Royal Navy commissioned Hospital Ships could be officially prefixed 'HMHS', can anyone provide a list of the names of these ships, and possibly the dates when the HMHS prefix could be applied, baring in mind that some could have been commissioned by the Army at some time, or returned to civilian service? Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 I'm still not back at work but I would have thought the Navy List would hold the answer, searchable via archive.org - infuriatingly Hospital Ships not in Colledge & Warlow, so far as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 As I stated in my post No.10, Colledge records that BERBICE and MEDIATOR were the only naval hospital ships to fly the Blue Ensign [i.e. as an RFA], post-war in the case of BERBICE. All the other naval hospital ships wore the Red Ensign [i.e. they were not commissioned]. From that statement it can be taken that there were no ships commissioned as"His Majesty's Hospital Ships (HMHS)" in WW1. Colledge also points out that "Many other vessels served the government as military hospital ships and hospital carriers" - none of which would have been HMHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 A search on 'Rohilla' using TNA's 'Discovery' finds , amongst others, ADM 1/8401/401 Loss of HM Hospital Ship ROHILLA - wrecked 30 Oct. 1914. Lists of survivors and casualtiesAlthough without actually examining the records ( and I would be the first to say, not an accurate means of determining the truth of the matter), it would seem reasonable (?) to assume that the HM Hospital Ship catalogue entry has been taken from the document(s) official title implying that she was officially designated as an HMHS by the Admiralty.Conversely other entries, including a second Admiralty record, just gives 'Hospital Ship' :ADM 1/8402/423 Hospital Ship ROHILLA wrecked 30 Oct. 1914. List of casualties and survivors. Award for services in efforts to save life MT 23/307/22 (Ministry of Transport) Hospital Ship Rohilla. Senior Medical Officer requests information on Messing and Victualling.NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Apart from correctness is their official designation of any significance ? For example, an entitlement to be painted with a red cross and perhaps avoid attack ? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 As I stated in my post No.10, Colledge records that BERBICE and MEDIATOR were the only naval hospital ships to fly the Blue Ensign [i.e. as an RFA], post-war in the case of BERBICE. All the other naval hospital ships wore the Red Ensign [i.e. they were not commissioned]. From that statement it can be taken that there were no ships commissioned as"His Majesty's Hospital Ships (HMHS)" in WW1. Colledge also points out that "Many other vessels served the government as military hospital ships and hospital carriers" - none of which would have been HMHS. I now go along with that. Having had to revisit a lot of old primary source material in order to try to get to the bottom of this perplexing issue, I can confirm as follows: WW1 Hospital Ships are included in the Navy List, but usually only RN medical staff are mentioned (not the ship's Captain/Commanding Officer). Therefore I presume that the navigating and engineering officers would have been ordinary mercantile marine men (who stayed on with the ship when it was requisitioned for war service). Lots of contemporary evidence (both official and non-official) supporting general and widespread use of the prefix 'HMHS' - however that in itself does not necessarily mean that these ships were commissioned. Having checked a number of postcards, clearly a national ensign is being flown astern in additional to a Red Cross flag at the masthead. And that ensign is clearly not the White ensign (but it is difficult to determine blue or red colour in a black & white photo). According to the Hague Convention on Hospital Ships - Government hospital ships were required to be painted white with a broad longitudinal green stripe on each side extending from bow to stern; whereas hospital ships belonging to (civilian/humanitarian) aid societies are to be similarly painted, but the stripe is to be red. Both varieties of ships must fly the Red Cross flag as well as their national ensign. From the (often confusing) reading/research I've done, I'm inclined to believe that although British Hospital ships were entirely run by the Admiralty, they did not have the status of being commissioned ships (i.e. they did not fly the white ensign during their wartime service). This is proving to be an interesting thread. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Thanks to everyone who has put me right. It's been illuminating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Mills Posted 4 January , 2016 Share Posted 4 January , 2016 In actual fact the hospital ship Britannic did fly the Blue Ensign; I believe this was because her commanding officer, Captain Charles A. Bartlett, was a member of the RNR, and as such his warrant (it that be the right word) permitted him to fly the blue ensign. In point of fact, most White Star skippers/officers were members of the RNR. As to the HMHS prefix, I have seen this used in the case of the Britannic, but I have also seen the prefix HS on the war memorial at Mikra. A letter from the Ministry of Defence (dated August 2000) uses the prefix HS, but notes that Britannic was a military rather than naval hospital ship. To further complicate matters, in his official report to the Admiralty following the ship's loss, Captain Bartlett referred to the vessel as H.M. Hospital Ship... As I understand it, military hospital ships came under the jurisdiction of the Transport Division, which I believe was a branch of the War Office. As such, it's possible that not all hospital ships would necessarily be included in the Navy List. Hope I haven't confused matters further. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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