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Hi, Can anyone tell me if a MIC carries ALL service details of an individual ? I am researching a relative who fought with the 8th Batt. Royal West Kents. I have a copy which only lists his RWK service, but on his local church memorial it states he also served with the 5th Royal Sussex. If this is so why is it not on his MIC ?

Regards

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Hi Old Bid,

Welcome to the forum.

The short answer to your question is no. In essence the MICs are generally a summary of the medal rolls, which themselves only list service in an active theatre. It is possible for a man to serve with a regiment where he didn't serve overseas with it, and consequently it wouldn't appear on his medal roll/ MIC. It is also possible that he could have been posted rather, than officially transferred from one unit to another. The only real answer would be to see if you could find his service record, but unfortunately most were destroyed as the consequence of a fire during the blitz in WW2.

Regards

Chris

Edit:

Might be worth posting his name, number, and everything else you know about him (including genealogy data) to see if Forum Pals can dig up anything. For one of mine, I also have a church record that indicates service with a unit that isn't mentioned in any surviving "official" record.

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Thanks Chris,

That would make sense if he trained with the 5th Royal Sussex upon enlistment. Then transferred to the Royal West Kent and then served in Flanders.

I have searched for his records but had no luck as yet. He was KIA with the 8 RWK on 9th Sept. 1917. L/Sgt. Arthur EJ Hobden. GS/7303. He was from Falmer, Brighton, Sussex.

I have a copy of WO95 which lists the action of the day in which he was probably killed.

If anyone can help that would be great.

Regards

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Have you seen his Soldiers Died in the Great War entry?

ARTHUR ERNEST JOHN HOBDEN G/7303.Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
This states that he was formerly 108 Royal Sussex Regt.
CGM
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Soldiers' Effects shows that following his death a war gratuity payment of £15/- was made to his father (Arthur). This indicates that his service "counted" from the start of the war. His 108 number in SDGW indicates that if he were previously with the 5th Royal Sussex, he was probably a pre war territorial - see here. That being the case, it would appear that he didn't volunteer to serve overseas by signing the Imperial Service Obligation before the end of September 1914. If he had, (and in the absence a 14/15 Star) he should have been entitled to the Territorial Force War Medal.

It would appear that he arrived as a reinforcement to the 8th RWK sometime after December 1915.

He appears to have a surviving Will, but from the couple I've bought, at £10 a go, their value is questionable. They come as a pdf file, of a low resolution, black and white scan,

Regards

Chris

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Thanks again Chris,

This is helpful. Unfortunately I don't have access to ancestry, is there anyway you could copy' effects' page and post on here ?

Do you think it was likely he only went overseas to serve after conscription came in Jan 1916 ?

What sort of information would a will likely to have ?

Regards

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Old Bid, sorry, but Forum Rules prevent anyone else displaying records from a Pay Site such as Ancestry, FWR etc.

You can access Ancestry for free at your local library and download onto a memory stick to print at home or print off for a nominal sum at the library.

He appears on the Falmer War Memorial or Roll of Honour

Quite a few other Holdens from Lewes area &/or Sussex, but no siblings for Arthur that I can see.

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Do you think it was likely he only went overseas to serve after conscription came in Jan 1916 ?

In theory the right to elect for home service only ended under the Military Service Act in 1916 but a man could then be kept at home if the Army decided they wanted him to do so.

Do you think it was likely he only went overseas to serve after conscription came in Jan 1916 ?

A compete mixed bag of information - some are just the bare basic of a letter with the details of who they wanted to benefit under the will, others have three or four pages of information regarding the will.

Craig

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Soldiers' Effects is essentially a ledger which show what monies were paid out by the army after the soldier died. It doesn't show any personal effects. You aren't missing much by not seeing the original record. His entry shows his name, his rank, his service number, and unit. It also confirms that he died on "9.9.17 France in action". It then shows that the balance owed to him by the army (£19 11s 2d) was paid in December 1917 to "Fa sole leg Arthur" (Father sole legatee Arthur), and the war gratuity was paid in October 1919 again to "Fa sole leg Arthur". That's about it really, no addresses, other family names, etc- just a record of money transactions.

What is invaluable about these records is that in the absence of a surviving record, the size of the war gratuity payment, coupled with his rank and date of death can be used to work out when a man started his service. Craig (above poster) has done a lot of hard work understanding the scheme, and has come up with a calculator. In your case it showed, an estimated enlistment/service counting from August 1914, so your man must have joined up immediately when war was declared, or have been already serving. As his number is so low in the 5th Royal Sussex it does tend to indicate that he was a pre war territorial.

As Craig said the wills can be a mixed bag, and might not tell you anything that you don't already know. What it should show you is sample of his handwriting, and from the style and spelling, you could possibly infer things about his education/literacy.

Regards

Chris

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Hello,

Thanks to all in helping me with this. Some excellent info on here that helps a great deal. I have ordered a copy of the will and will let you know if there is any useful info. in it.

To kevinbattle, yes a lot of Hobdens in Falmer, Lewes area. A lot of my ancestors are buried in Falmer Churchyard. He had no siblings as far as I can work out, been trying to work on a family tree when time allows.

Regards

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His Royal Sussex number could also be a number allocated to the Special Reserve August 1914. (Numbers in the same series were also allocated to the Southdowns [unlikely] and the TF in November 1914).

The war diary of the 8th RWK is brief to say the least!

However most likely is that he was in the 2/5 Royal Sussex, compulsorily transferred to RWK 19/10/1916 and posted to the 8th Bn in France 3/11/1916. It seems likely he fought at Arras in May, a Private Dancy who was probably in the same group (7341) and from Cuckfield was killed in that battle.

Ken

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Hobden wounded 14/2/1917 with RWK.

TEW

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Hi,

Thanks again to everyone on here some great knowledge. TEW have you any further info on the wounded Hobden ? Where did you find this info ?

Regards

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Should have stated he is on a casualty list of that date. Perhaps wounded in the preceding 3-4weeks.

TEW

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Hi TEW,

You mention casualty, do you mean killed or died as I cannot find him on my list of Hobdens that died in WW1 ?

Regards

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No, wounded. Shown on official daily casualty list.

TEW

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Hi kenf48,

Do you have any more info about the compulsory transfer of the 2/5 Royal Sussex to RWK ? Where would I find this info ?

This sounds a very likely outcome as his soldiers will is dated 9/11/1916 with the RWK. Also I see the 2/5 RSR was formed out of territorials from the 5 RSR not wishing to serve overseas.

Regards

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Hi kenf48,

Do you have any more info about the compulsory transfer of the 2/5 Royal Sussex to RWK ? Where would I find this info ?

This sounds a very likely outcome as his soldiers will is dated 9/11/1916 with the RWK. Also I see the 2/5 RSR was formed out of territorials from the 5 RSR not wishing to serve overseas.

Regards

Not quite, the 2/5 was a second line or reserve unit. It did include men who refused to sign the Imperial Obligation, but also those who were too young or unfit and those who enlisted in the TF after war was declared, like Pte Dancy who according to,his entry in De Ruvigny enlisted on the 15 November 1914. He was 660 in the Royal Sussex, and as noted above 7341 in the RWK. After the introduction of conscription in March 1916 the option for the TF to elect home service ceased, though most recruits to the TF in 1915 did sign.

If you look at men with similar service numbers where their record has survived you will see examples of men in this number series posted from the Royal Sussex to the RWK as shown above. Only overseas service is shown on the medal rolls though there is, for example a man who was in the 1/5 Sussex in the group.

I would endorse John's advice at post 14 above

Ken

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  • 5 years later...

Many thanks for all the advice on this forum. I have now been able to compile a service record from various sources, it has taken a while due to time restraints but I think I have done all that is able with the absence of an official attestation/service record.

When it is in a readable order will post so anyone can give their opinions in terms of possible mistakes.

 

Regards

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Here it is.......

2B532333-E1EC-4AA6-B293-5E369074E9D5.jpeg

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