max7474 Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12067453/Soldier-shared-cigs-jam-and-corn-beef-in-1914-Christmas-truce-letters-reveal.html Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so. Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 Poor research/editing by the Torygraph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 24 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2015 Gareth I am shocked - this is the Telegraph not your Daily Mail! Seriously though his medal card is for 2 RWF. I checked already. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 'Tis indeed a mystery - see earlier posts on the chappie at: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 See this thread 3817 Frederick James Davies has surviving records which match the newspaper item i.e from Lampeter, enlisted 1908 (Special Reserve though), discharged 1915 etc. Add to that no other likely match in the MIC's for a 1914 man and it's highly likely to be him. Possibly the family researcher has mis identified the photo. A brother or other relative maybe. edit: posted same time Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 Cheers Hywyn - you having a break from the evening celebrations then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2015 So either it's not him or it's a Special Reserve Bn peculiarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 December , 2015 Share Posted 26 December , 2015 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12067453/Soldier-shared-cigs-jam-and-corn-beef-in-1914-Christmas-truce-letters-reveal.html Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so. Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December. As pointed out by hywyn - not exactly the truth. Was entirely 3rd(SR)Bn,RWF from 6th November 1908 and served 6yrs 284days. His attachment to the 2nd Bn,RWF was brief as he was admitted to No.3 General Hospital on the 30th April 1915 and returned to England on the 11th May 1915, ending up in No.2 Western General Hospital, Manchester on the 12th May, 1915 and was still in the UK on the 6th June 1915, being eventually "Discharged" on the 16th August 1915. A letter to this effect was written in his own hand when applying for a Silver War Badge in January 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 26 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2015 So the photo is not him then if its an economy tunic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 10 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2022 Well the photo is now on the IWM site https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1115337 and attributed as him by them. I am still unable to find an answer as to why he is wearing this badge and not the RWF one. The fact that the Ich Dien and the scroll has been removed suggests to me that this is a deliberate modification. The only explanation I can think of is that this resulted from a shortage of RWF badges in 1914? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 10 December , 2022 Share Posted 10 December , 2022 On 10/12/2022 at 16:14, max7474 said: Well the photo is now on the IWM site https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1115337 and attributed as him by them. The photo has been added by two contributors. Selena and Ceri, at some point prior to March 2019. Both have stated the source of the photo is Porthcawl Museum. Sure enough, the photo is on that websitehttp://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 10 December , 2022 Share Posted 10 December , 2022 3 hours ago, max7474 said: This is what I believe the question is: "Why is a man with a service number of the RWF associated with a photo of a man with a fleur-de-lis cap badge of the Welsh Regiment". My answer remains the same. "The Porthcawl Museum, in creating their centenary WW1 website, have linked this man with that photograph". Various lazy persons have come across this website, and have accepted this at face value, perhaps not knowing the different cap badges of the Welsh infantry regiments.https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/the-christmas-truce-1914.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 10 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2022 I am afraid you are missing the point. The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed? This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification. As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done? I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units. So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 10 December , 2022 Share Posted 10 December , 2022 On 24/12/2015 at 17:46, max7474 said: Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so. Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December. On 24/12/2015 at 18:14, Hywyn said: Possibly the family researcher has mis identified the photo. A brother or other relative maybe. Making contact with the museum would be a good idea, to determine why this photo is linked with the man who served in the RWF. I take it you did not approach the Daily Telegraph and ask them this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 December , 2022 Share Posted 10 December , 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, max7474 said: I am afraid you are missing the point. The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed? This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification. As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done? I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units. So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in. It’s definitely not a RWF cap badge Max. I think it might be something connected with the early days of the proposed Welsh Army Corps (supported by Lloyd George and other worthies), which I understand was eventually absorbed within the early Training Reserve before it was wholly reorganised into numbered battalions without any regimental designation and wearing GS buttons as the standardised headdress insignia. I’ve seen a very similar badge within the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum and can recall it being discussed some years ago. If you post your query there I’m sure that you’ll get a response. There are several collectors there who specialise in the badges of Welsh regiments of all types. Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 10 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2022 Thank you Frogsmile for a sensible answer. it is much appreciated to get such a well informed response. That's a very useful lead to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 11 December , 2022 Share Posted 11 December , 2022 17 hours ago, max7474 said: I am afraid you are missing the point. The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed? This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification. As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done? I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units. So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in. the example I own of the cut down badge. had it a few years and it always seemed to have been done many years back and the badge is a period made example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 December , 2022 Share Posted 12 December , 2022 (edited) On 11/12/2022 at 10:48, Jerry B said: the example I own of the cut down badge. had it a few years and it always seemed to have been done many years back and the badge is a period made example. I do think that there’s a strong likelihood that there is a link between the badge and the proposed Welsh Army Corps. It was an attempt to tap into Welsh Nationalism and a discrete uniform was seriously intended as an attempt to create a sense of national identity. This would have included some basic insignia and I know that a Welsh clothier was approached to provide some grey cloth to make up the uniforms, which he apparently agreed to do (albeit not for free!). This was during the same period as Kitchener Blue and the use elsewhere of old postal uniforms, and even uniforms provided (funded) by city authorities, such as occurred in Manchester. In the event the Welsh Corps never reached its intended potential and the units eventually adopted khaki when sufficient stocks came online. Nevertheless, there does seem to have been some use of the basic three feathers badge going by photographic evidence. Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 23 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) On 10/12/2022 at 18:06, Keith_history_buff said: Making contact with the museum would be a good idea, to determine why this photo is linked with the man who served in the RWF. I take it you did not approach the Daily Telegraph and ask them this question? The independent also ran the story https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldier-private-frederick-davies-ww1-letters-recall-christmas-day-truce-a6785236.html The Independent attributed the source of the photo to his granddaughter Jane Oliver whose mother (the subject's eldest daughter) owned the photo so it is a family photo which suggests that it is indeed him. On 10/12/2022 at 18:06, Keith_history_buff said: Edited 23 December , 2022 by max7474 sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 On 12/12/2022 at 11:21, FROGSMILE said: I know that a Welsh clothier was approached to provide some grey cloth to make up the uniforms, which he apparently agreed to do (albeit not for free!). Yes, more about the grey cloth (Brethyn Llwyd) here in an old post: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 23 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2022 Worth a read https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26374454 about the uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Yes, more about the grey cloth (Brethyn Llwyd) here in an old post: Having been a regular Royal Welch (Welsh) Fusilier for 12-years (as was my brother before me) I can imagine exactly how the regiment (regular battalions) would have viewed those efforts to tap into local Welsh politics and sense of national identity. The latter had changed very little when I participated in recruiting campaigns in the 1970s. Before any regimental posters could be put up we had first to remove Free Wales Army equivalents. Within days they had been covered over again. Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) There is something else that’s cropped up concerning this matter that might offer an answer. I think we’re all aware of the importance afforded continuity and historical lineage in British regular and auxiliary regiments and so another possible source for our badge might lie in the past. I enclose an image of a Royal Caermarthen Fusiliers Militia Georgian head-dress plate circa 1804-16. It comprises of a large die-stamped brass Prince of Waless plumes with coronet. What strikes me most is that as with our subject badge there’s neither motto nor title scroll, just three feathers and coronet. The Caermarthen Militia was raised in 1763, the Royal title bestowed in 1799, and Fusiliers in 1803 for service in Ireland. It seems all too much of a coincidence for there to be no connection and one can imagine a local worthy using past militia units to inspire localised recruiting during that period of aspiration for a Welsh, Army Corps. An inspiration as it were. NB. The regiment became a rifle corps in 1852 and Militia Artillery in 1862. Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 23 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2022 I suspect you may have hit the nail on the head with this one. It is feasible that the WAC put an order in for a generic welsh feathers cap badge as part of their outfitting of the Corps in 1915. In the events the constituent parts ended up badged to the Royal Welsh, RWF etc and the feathers cap bade fell into disuse. It would be interesting to see if any one else has other 1915 era photos with the badge in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 The only drawback being that the man he is purported to be served 3rd RWF and 2nd RWF. No service in any WAC battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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