Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

RWF USE OF PofW FEATHERS CAP BADGE


max7474

Recommended Posts

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12067453/Soldier-shared-cigs-jam-and-corn-beef-in-1914-Christmas-truce-letters-reveal.html

Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so.

Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Poor research/editing by the Torygraph?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Tis indeed a mystery - see earlier posts on the chappie at:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See this thread

 

3817 Frederick James Davies has surviving records which match the newspaper item i.e from Lampeter, enlisted 1908 (Special Reserve though), discharged 1915 etc. Add to that no other likely match in the MIC's for a 1914 man and it's highly likely to be him.

Possibly the family researcher has mis identified the photo. A brother or other relative maybe.

edit: posted same time Trajan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers Hywyn - you having a break from the evening celebrations then? :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12067453/Soldier-shared-cigs-jam-and-corn-beef-in-1914-Christmas-truce-letters-reveal.html

Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so.

Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December.

As pointed out by hywyn - not exactly the truth. Was entirely 3rd(SR)Bn,RWF from 6th November 1908 and served 6yrs 284days. His attachment to the 2nd Bn,RWF was brief as he was admitted to No.3 General Hospital on the 30th April 1915 and returned to England on the 11th May 1915, ending up in No.2 Western General Hospital, Manchester on the 12th May, 1915 and was still in the UK on the 6th June 1915, being eventually "Discharged" on the 16th August 1915. A letter to this effect was written in his own hand when applying for a Silver War Badge in January 1917.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 years later...

Well the photo is now on the IWM site https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1115337  and attributed as him by them.  I am still unable to find an answer as to why he is wearing this badge and not the RWF one.  The fact that the Ich Dien and the scroll has been removed suggests to me that this is a deliberate modification.  The only explanation I can think of is that this resulted from a shortage of RWF badges in 1914?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/12/2022 at 16:14, max7474 said:

Well the photo is now on the IWM site https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1115337  and attributed as him by them. 



The photo has been added by two contributors. Selena and Ceri, at some point prior to March 2019. Both have stated the source of the photo is Porthcawl Museum. Sure enough, the photo is on that website
http://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/index.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, max7474 said:

This is what I believe the question is: "Why is a man with a service number of the RWF associated with a photo of a man with a fleur-de-lis cap badge of the Welsh Regiment".


My answer remains the same.
"The Porthcawl Museum, in creating their centenary WW1 website, have linked this man with that photograph".

Various lazy persons have come across this website, and have accepted this at face value, perhaps not knowing the different cap badges of the Welsh infantry regiments.
https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/the-christmas-truce-1914.html

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am afraid you are missing the point.  The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed?  This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification.  As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done?  I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly  attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units.  So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/12/2015 at 17:46, max7474 said:

Can anyone explain why this RWF Regular soldier (enlisted age 20 in 1908 into 2nd Bn RWF and discharged end of 1915 with spine injury) is wearing PofW feathers and not a Fusiliers grenade? If he was Royal Welsh then I would assume a broken badge or scroll hidden by strap but in this case not so.

Photo is likely to be late 14-15 judging by the tunic. He was in France in December.

  

On 24/12/2015 at 18:14, Hywyn said:

Possibly the family researcher has mis identified the photo. A brother or other relative maybe.

Making contact with the museum would be a good idea, to determine why this photo is linked with the man who served in the RWF.

I take it you did not approach the Daily Telegraph and ask them this question?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, max7474 said:

I am afraid you are missing the point.  The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed?  This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification.  As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done?  I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly  attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units.  So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in.  

It’s definitely not a RWF cap badge Max.  I think it might be something connected with the early days of the proposed Welsh Army Corps (supported by Lloyd George and other worthies), which I understand was eventually absorbed within the early Training Reserve before it was wholly reorganised into numbered battalions without any regimental designation and wearing GS buttons as the standardised headdress insignia.  I’ve seen a very similar badge within the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum and can recall it being discussed some years ago.  If you post your query there I’m sure that you’ll get a response.  There are several collectors there who specialise in the badges of Welsh regiments of all types.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, max7474 said:

I am afraid you are missing the point.  The source of the photo is immaterial to the question of why is a WW1 soldier wearing a Welsh cap badge with the Ich Dien and the scroll removed?  This is not a sealed pattern and is a modification.  As they come up in collections now and again and this photo shows it in wear in WW1 the question remains why was this done?  I have seen uninfomed comments incorrectly  attributing them to the 15th Londons or the Wilts Yeomanry but this photo is neither of those units.  So the question remains as to what regiment this man was in.  

the example I own of the cut down badge.  had it a few years and it always seemed to have been done many years back and the badge is a period made example.

cut down pow feathers lambourne slider.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/12/2022 at 10:48, Jerry B said:

the example I own of the cut down badge.  had it a few years and it always seemed to have been done many years back and the badge is a period made example.

cut down pow feathers lambourne slider.jpg

I do think that there’s a strong likelihood that there is a link between the badge and the proposed Welsh Army Corps.  It was an attempt to tap into Welsh Nationalism and a discrete uniform was seriously intended as an attempt to create a sense of national identity.  This would have included some basic insignia and I know that a Welsh clothier was approached to provide some grey cloth to make up the uniforms, which he apparently agreed to do (albeit not for free!). This was during the same period as Kitchener Blue and the use elsewhere of old postal uniforms, and even uniforms provided (funded) by city authorities, such as occurred in Manchester.  In the event the Welsh Corps never reached its intended potential and the units eventually adopted khaki when sufficient stocks came online.  Nevertheless, there does seem to have been some use of the basic three feathers badge going by photographic evidence. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/12/2022 at 18:06, Keith_history_buff said:

  

Making contact with the museum would be a good idea, to determine why this photo is linked with the man who served in the RWF.

I take it you did not approach the Daily Telegraph and ask them this question?

 

The independent also ran the story  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldier-private-frederick-davies-ww1-letters-recall-christmas-day-truce-a6785236.html

The Independent  attributed the source of the photo to his granddaughter Jane Oliver whose mother (the subject's eldest daughter) owned the photo so it is a family photo which suggests that it is indeed him.

 

On 10/12/2022 at 18:06, Keith_history_buff said:

 

 

Edited by max7474
sp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/12/2022 at 11:21, FROGSMILE said:

I know that a Welsh clothier was approached to provide some grey cloth to make up the uniforms, which he apparently agreed to do (albeit not for free!).

Yes, more about the grey cloth (Brethyn Llwyd) here in an old post:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes, more about the grey cloth (Brethyn Llwyd) here in an old post:

 

Having been a regular Royal Welch (Welsh) Fusilier for 12-years (as was my brother before me) I can imagine exactly how the regiment (regular battalions) would have viewed those efforts to tap into local Welsh politics and sense of national identity.  The latter had changed very little when I participated in recruiting campaigns in the 1970s.  Before any regimental posters could be put up we had first to remove Free Wales Army equivalents.  Within days they had been covered over again.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is something else that’s cropped up concerning this matter that might offer an answer.  I think we’re all aware of the importance afforded continuity and historical lineage in British regular and auxiliary regiments and so another possible source for our badge might lie in the past.

I enclose an image of a Royal Caermarthen Fusiliers Militia Georgian head-dress plate circa 1804-16.
It comprises of a large die-stamped brass Prince of Waless plumes with coronet.

What strikes me most is that as with our subject badge there’s neither motto nor title scroll, just three feathers and coronet.

The Caermarthen Militia was raised in 1763, the Royal title bestowed in 1799, and Fusiliers in 1803 for service in Ireland.

 It seems all too much of a coincidence for there to be no connection and one can imagine a local worthy using past militia units to inspire localised recruiting during that period of aspiration for a Welsh, Army Corps.  An inspiration as it were.

NB.  The regiment became a rifle corps in 1852 and Militia Artillery in 1862.

 

601621AF-A399-4C62-B9C3-86207C1D8F50.jpeg

16FC9B3A-E174-4D00-9993-8BA36A764F11.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect you may have hit the nail on the head with this one.  It is feasible that the WAC put an order in for a generic welsh feathers cap badge as part of their outfitting of the Corps in 1915.  In the events the constituent parts ended up badged to the Royal Welsh, RWF etc and the feathers cap bade fell into disuse.  It would be interesting to see if any one else has other 1915 era photos with the badge in use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...