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Remembered Today:

Marine Seitengewehr M1911


motojosh

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Not in the best shape, but was glad to finally find one. These were made by Simson and have a blade similar to the 98/05, but longer at 17". Issued mainly to the torpedo divisions although some are marked to minesweepers as well. This one is marked to the 1st torpedo division.

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That is an extremely impressive find motojosh. I have never seen one of those bayonets in my life (and to be honest I didn't know that they existed). A wonderful looking bayonet, especially the basket style guard, and with some great unit marks as well.

Thanks so much for posting. Did you find it in the UK or Europe?

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Yet another nice one there! A completely new type for me - and what a blade on that!

Trajan

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Dear All,

Interesting although I don't think this is a "Seitengewehr" at all. I have looked at the IWM website and there it is described as:

"Identification: described in the sale catalogue (1310/82) as a 'German Model 1911 Marine Sidearm, used by N.C.O.'s and enlisted men of Torpedo Divisions, Mine sections and Naval Artillery units".

An example is shown in "Fighting Knives" by Frederick J Stephens and he remarks that the addition of the basket-form hilt effectively converts the bayonet to a cutlass. The example he shows is made by Simpson & Co. and is marked MA 83 indicating Matrosen-Artillerie-Abteilung or Minen-Abteilung. The scabbard looks identical to the leather and steel scabbard for the S98/02 or 98/05 although the length may differ.

Regards,

Michael.

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A minor knuckle rapping needed here.... :whistle: The term Seitengewehr covered all sidearms that were Blankwaffen, and so included swords, daggers and bayonets... Thus the distinction in pre- and early WW1 regulations between 'long' and 'short' Seitengewehre... :thumbsup: Long ones are swords and the like, kurzen Seitengewehre are short ones and almost always clearly fixable bayonets. The distinction is made clear in several regulations and decrees, e.g., Kriegsministerium Nr. 152009, of 1 July 1918, to the Ordnance ministry, approving the issue of long Seitengewehre for mounted troops and which specifically describes them therein as the Kav.Sabel n.A.. Likewise another decree of 1914 which talks of kurzen Seitengewehre ... mit metallgriffen, i.e., ersatz bayonets...

The perfectly good old German expression bajonett was replaced by Seitengewehr in the later 19th century for reasons I have never discovered....

Julian

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I had always thought of them as a type of 'boarding cutlass', having only seen photo's of them, regardless of its condition. (which I don't think is too bad) it must be a very uncommon blade. I would be more than happy to give it wall space in my home. Again well done

khaki

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An excellent find, I have often seen them in Marine group photo's proudly displayed along with their navy Lugers,

khaki

Thanks. They made somewhere around 11,000 of these, but not many seem to have survived.

That is an extremely impressive find motojosh. I have never seen one of those bayonets in my life (and to be honest I didn't know that they existed). A wonderful looking bayonet, especially the basket style guard, and with some great unit marks as well.

Thanks so much for posting. Did you find it in the UK or Europe?

Thanks. I like the look of it as well and it's very well balanced in hand. The unit marking was a nice bonus as the seller didn't mention it having any. This one came out of the UK.

Yet another nice one there! A completely new type for me - and what a blade on that!

Trajan

Thanks. There's even an ersatz bayonet which uses this blade (see pg 550 of Williams pt 2).

20151215_202026-1_3.jpg

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Another real nice & very rare find Josh, well done mate :)

Yet another nigh on impossible to find example to look out for ;)

Aleck

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Just out of curiosity I have just checked with Friedag 1914 edition on the weapons issued to the Kaiserliche Marine, and these are not mentioned under personal equipment for the Marineinfanterie, and so as is to be expected, they are 'boat's stores', so to speak.

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  • 2 years later...

The SG1911 was created to be used, along with the P.04 pistol, on small vessels (torpedo boats and minesweepers) where is wasn't practical to use rifles and bayonets.  Consequently the P.04 and SG1911 were the weapons used during the military training of the two Torpedo Divisions and the Minen Abteilung in Cuxhaven.  The ones used by the training units are marked T.D.I., T.D.II, or M.A.  They show up in the training "class photos" starting in 1912 when they were first issued.

 

Here's an extremely rare photo of one actually "in the wild" (worn by the Matrose on the far left) on a torpedo boat in 1916.

 

 

SG1911 on S127 6Jul1916.jpg

Edited by Luger_P04
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Welcome to the forum Luger!

 

Interesting photograph that and nice to see it. Looks to be on a U-boot under service? I don't know these things! Just wondering about that curved hull and conning tower on the left? But what is all that scaffolding on the right? I guess "S 127" on the life ring means something  - for "Seeboot"?

 

Trajan

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S 127 was a large seagoing Torpedoboat, equivalent to a British Destroyer.

 

Part of the 1904 Shipbuilding program, it was built by Schichau Werke in Elbing. Launched 12 January 1904 and commissioned 7 june 1904.  It was renamed T-127 in September 1916, shortly after this photo was taken. 

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Great. Something else I "need" to add to the collection. Lovely find and thanks for showing.

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On 14/12/2015 at 11:46, Michael Haselgrove said:

Dear All,

Interesting although I don't think this is a "Seitengewehr" at all. I have looked at the IWM website and there it is described as:

"Identification: described in the sale catalogue (1310/82) as a 'German Model 1911 Marine Sidearm, used by N.C.O.'s and enlisted men of Torpedo Divisions, Mine sections and Naval Artillery units".

An example is shown in "Fighting Knives" by Frederick J Stephens and he remarks that the addition of the basket-form hilt effectively converts the bayonet to a cutlass. The example he shows is made by Simpson & Co. and is marked MA 83 indicating Matrosen-Artillerie-Abteilung or Minen-Abteilung. The scabbard looks identical to the leather and steel scabbard for the S98/02 or 98/05 although the length may differ.

Regards,

Michael.

The "M.A." marking is the Minen Abteilung in Cuxhaven.  The marking applied to Matrosen-Artillerie-Abteilung weapons is M.A.A. preceded by a roman numeral for the various Abteilungen, e.g. "I.M.A.A."  or "II.M.A.A.".  The unit marks were applied across the width of the backstrap on the Navy P.04s, so the last "A" was omitted due to lack a space.  But the Artillery marks always had a preceding roman numeral.  Since there was only one Minen Abteilung, there was no preceding numeral.  In any event, the SG1911 wasn't issued to the Artillery units.  

 

I don't know who currently owns the SG1911 marked M.A.83, but I would like to buy it.  I currently have one without a unit mark, but which came with a scabbard that has an 1912 MA marked frog.  It's either M.A.83 or M.A.85, the last digit is small and indistinct.

 

Here's my Minen Abteilung collection https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/267279-kaiserliche-marine-minen-abteilung/

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

1st Torpedo Division, showing 'Torpedomesser' and P04

001.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Whilst I keep an eye on this chap for the British stuff, he's just added one of these rare beasts in case anyone's interested...1st page.

http://www.bayonetman.com/shop.php

 

Dave.

Edited by Dave66
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Very interesting, but at more than 50% of my salary I think I'll let it go by me...

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1 hour ago, trajan said:

Very interesting, but at more than 50% of my salary I think I'll let it go by me...

Sadly way beyond my budget also, SWMBO would have a fit and I'd be sleeping in the shed!

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On 13/12/2015 at 06:16, motojosh said:

Not in the best shape, but was glad to finally find one. These were made by Simson and have a blade similar to the 98/05, but longer at 17". Issued mainly to the torpedo divisions although some are marked to minesweepers as well. This one is marked to the 1st torpedo division.

DSC_0248_1.jpg

DSC_0246_1.jpg

DSC_0240_1.jpg

Great bayonet dear friend. 

A must for any serious collector, as you are. 

Regards

D. 

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