12th Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps - 31 captured north of Ypres 1

[pagius]

12th KRRC War Diary has

19th Feb 1916 4pm

About 4pm enemy surprised and captured small Advance Post, held by us, taking (it is believed) 1 officer and 30 other ranks prisoner.

(They were on the front line east of the Yser canal at the time).

I know that one of the ORs was Cpl William George Dedman (1897-1973). (Grandfather of a friend).

Posting this in the slim hope that anyone on here knows anything about any of the other 30 people taken prisoner!

[KevinBattle]

These casualties were incurred from 18th to 26th and may have died as a result of the attack

FELLOWS, HENRY Corporal R/3357 19/02/1916 30 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom IV. D. 16A. LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY

SMITH, REGINALD Lance Corporal R/13620 19/02/1916 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom IV. D. 9. LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY

KIRBY, WILSON Rifleman R/13982 19/02/1916 38 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom Panel 51 and 53. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

BRAMLEY, GEORGE Rifleman R/9149 20/02/1916 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom Panel 51 and 53. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

BLAKE, THOMAS Corporal R/10301 20/02/1916 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom Panel 51 and 53. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

WILLIAMS, E Rifleman A/3484 21/02/1916 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom IV. D. 19A. LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY

TROY, JOHN Rifleman Y/1377 23/02/1916 33 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom LXII. C. 1. TYNE COT CEMETERY

RADFORD, OSWALD CAMPBELL Captain 26/02/1916 25 King's Royal Rifle Corps United Kingdom II. A. 40. LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY

Can't help with the rest

[pagius]

Thanks for that info. I'm trying to identify the one officer that was captured in the hope that it might give me a lead into what happened next. The war diary just mentions the attack in that one line and doesn't name the officer. (The CO was Lt Col Albert Ingraham Paine who had had distinguished service in the Boer War). We know from Dedman's records that he was taken to Soltau and Giessen for the rest of the war and I gather ORs were separated from the officers. Unfortunately Dedman seems to be missing from the ICRC pow list . I've tried variant spellings but no joy ... so looking to see if I can find an ICRC record for anyone else in this group of POWs ie 12th KRRC captured on 19/2/16.

[pagius]

Just found an older thread on 12th KRRC in Feb 1916 which points out that the officer captured is named in the right hand margin of that page. 2 Lt H Pratt . So now I can look him up and follow his timeline.

[MBrockway]

Just found an older thread on 12th KRRC in Feb 1916 which points out that the officer captured is named in the right hand margin of that page. 2 Lt H Pratt . So now I can look him up and follow his timeline.

Yep - always worth trying the Forum's Search tool

This is the topic Peter found: 12th Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps - Feb 1916

This topic is also relevant: Left of the Line, April 1916? 12th Battalion, King's Liverpool Reg

[pagius]

Thanks again , Mark.

Dedman's service sheet and record card says he was sent to Giessen and then Soltau camps (although I can't find him in ICRC yet).

His service sheet , which is very faded, seems to indicate he was released 7/5/18 (but I may be interpreting it incorrectly). Is that possible?

[MBrockway]

Yes, it certainly is possible.

Some 200,000 POW's of all nations were exchanged during the War.

Usually this was on the grounds of ill health or disability, but later in the War, older men and those who had been in captivity longer than 18 months were also considered for transfer.

The POW's were generally sent to neutral Switzerland where they were interned. Later in the War, The Netherlands operated a similar scheme.

IIRC, Britain and Germany reached an accord late in the War where some of these interned men could be repatriated back to their home country based on similar conditions.

I'm afraid your image posted above is too faint for me to make it out fully. Could it be "Arrd [Arrived] in Holland|7-5-18 transd [transferred] from|Germany for internment"?

Some more info about Swiss internment here: http://www.switzerland1914-1918.net/prisoners-of-war-interned-in-switzerland.html

[MBrockway]

Peter,

You may find it interesting to check the following for service records ...

BOWERS, Rfn Henry Edward James, R/5069, 12/KRRC
CORWELL, Rfn Harry, R/9023, 12/KRRC
EVANS, Rfn Robert, 7217, 12/KRRC
EVANS, Rfn Thomas, R/2166, 12/KRRC
KEOGH, Rfn William, R/6419, 12/KRRC
LIDSEY, Rfn Francis (Frank) Ernest, R/842, 12/KRRC
MORRIS, Rfn James, R/9174, 12/KRRC
PERRY, Rfn William, R/1927, 12/KRRC
SANDLAND, Rfn Alexander, R/556, 12/KRRC
SAUNDERS, Rfn Percy H, R/12154, 12/KRRC
SKIDMORE, Rfn Thomas Joseph, R/8985, 12/KRRC
SMITH, Rfn John W, R/14023, 12/KRRC
TELFORD, L/Cpl Arthur George, 7544, 12/KRRC
VANLINT, Rfn William, R/12073, 12/KRRC
WATSON, L/Cpl James, R/13702, 12/KRRC
WEBB, Rfn James Alfred, A/2301, 12/KRRC

I have reason to believe some of these men may have been captured on 19 Feb 1916.

[MBrockway]

Peter,

I can add the following ...

Lance-Serjeant William George DEDMAN / DEADMAN, R/570, 'D' Coy, 12/KRRC
Surname spelt 'Deadman' on NA MIC Index


Born: 19 Mar 1895, Dorking, Surrey
Residence: West Horsley, Surrey

22 Jul 1915 - embarked in France as a Lance Corporal
before Feb 1916 - promoted to substantive rank of Corporal, then later to Lance-Serjeant
19 Feb 1916 - captured E of BOESINGHE
15 Apr 1916 - listed as POW at Giessen
05 Nov 1917 - listed as POW at Hameln, formerly at Soltau
23 Jul 1918 - listed as transferred from Hameln to Aachen in The Netherlands for internment

[pagius]

Hi Mark

Thanks for all the info. I'll look up those names you've given above. Yes, he is down as Deadman on a few records but his name was really Dedman.

I hadn't tracked down his MIC yet , probably because I was looking for Dedman ,, so there's some new info there for me on POW camp movements.

Peter

[charlie2]

23 Jul 1918 - listed as transferred from Hameln to Aachen in The Netherlands for internment

Aachen is in Germany. The PoWs were transferred to Holland via Aachen.

Charlie

[MBrockway]

Aachen is in Germany. The PoWs were transferred to Holland via Aachen.

Charlie

Fair enough! Having been there, I blush at this schoolboy error

I too was transiting from Germany to The Netherlands at the time!

[pagius]

Peter,

I can add the following ...

Lance-Serjeant William George DEDMAN / DEADMAN, R/570, 'D' Coy, 12/KRRC

Surname spelt 'Deadman' on NA MIC Index

Born: 19 Mar 1895, Dorking, Surrey

Residence: West Horsley, Surrey

22 Jul 1915 - embarked in France as a Lance Corporal

before Feb 1916 - promoted to substantive rank of Corporal, then later to Lance-Serjeant

19 Feb 1916 - captured E of BOESINGHE

15 Apr 1916 - listed as POW at Giessen

05 Nov 1917 - listed as POW at Hameln, formerly at Soltau

23 Jul 1918 - listed as transferred from Hameln to Aachen in The Netherlands for internment

Hi Mark

I've found Dedman/Deadman's MIC card on ancestry now ..but where did you find all the info on the POW camps?

Thanks

Peter

[MBrockway]

His records are on the ICRC website.

Any luck on Ancestry with the service records of the other men?

[pagius]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim on this!

If I enter Dedman (or Deadman) in the search box to get a number of Dedmans and Deadmans I can't see his record.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/dedman

Thanks for your help in this. I'll let you know if any in your list were in his group of those captured on 19/02/16.

[johnboy]

His records are on the ICRC website.

Can you give a link to the record? I am having the same problems as Pagius.

[MBrockway]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim on this!

If I enter Dedman (or Deadman) in the search box to get a number of Dedmans and Deadmans I can't see his record.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/dedman

Thanks for your help in this. I'll let you know if any in your list were in his group of those captured on 19/02/16.

His records are on the ICRC website.

Can you give a link to the record? I am having the same problems as Pagius.

Surprised you're all having trouble locating these, but maybe navigating the ICRC site is a bit of a black art .

Anyhow I've posted the images below.

Also there's a minor addition to his PoW history ...

19 Feb 1916 - captured E of BOESINGHE

15 Apr 1916 - listed at Giessen

25 Jun 1917 - listed at Meschede, formerly at Giessen

05 Nov 1917 - listed at Hameln, formerly at Soltau

23 Jul 1918 - listed as transferred from Hameln to Aachen (in Germany ) for internment in The Netherlands, apparently on grounds of sickness

Here are the ICRC images and links, apologies for the lack of image scaling ...

Giessen

Meschede

Hamelin ...

Transfer to Aachen for internment in The Netherlands

[pagius]

Hi Mark

Many thanks for these images. I'll pass on the info to William's grand-daughter this evening, She gave me various bits and pieces to copy and one was a postcard

from Meschede , so that ties in nicely with what you've found.

But I'm still mystified as to why I can't see the record under the Dedman(19) list that gives the link to these such as PA 4709.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/dedman

Did you start from there or just go to the camp by camp listings?

Peter

[MBrockway]

Fantastic picture. Please pass my appreciation on to William's granddaughter.

William will certainly have known my own grandfather having both been part of the original establishment of 12/KRRC.

It's very nice to see an image of one of his comrades.

[MBrockway]

But I'm still mystified as to why I can't see the record under the Dedman(19) list that gives the link to these such as PA 4709.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/dedman

Did you start from there or just go to the camp by camp listings?

Peter

I used that same name index, but my research skills go back to the days when indexing was typically on card index or hand-pasted catalogues, not done digitally, so perhaps I'm used to applying lots of guile to find stuff!

One needs to get inside the heads of those who made the original catalogue.

[KevinBattle]

Post #17 first image shows several other 12/Kings Roial Riffles in addition to those previously listed, so no doubt the 30 or so taken prisoner will be on pages before and after the one posted might now answer the original post......

Is there any explanation for the "D" prefix? I can't imagine they were D Company....?

[johnboy]

Post #17 first image shows several other 12/Kings Roial Riffles in addition to those previously listed, so no doubt the 30 or so taken prisoner will be on pages before and after the one posted might now answer the original post......

Is there any explanation for the "D" prefix? I can't imagine they were D Company....?

On the page with Hamelin at the top . The top of the column gives a,b and c abbreviations. I don't read German but looking at it could be Regiment Battalion and company/ Not sure if Company is spelt with a K in German though.

[charlie2]

Post #17 first image shows several other 12/Kings Roial Riffles in addition to those previously listed, so no doubt the 30 or so taken prisoner will be on pages before and after the one posted might now answer the original post......

Is there any explanation for the "D" prefix? I can't imagine they were D Company....

The prefix D is the Company

On the page with Hamelin at the top . The top of the column gives a,b and c abbreviations. I don't read German but looking at it could be Regiment Battalion and company/ Not sure if Company is spelt with a K in German though.

You are right and Kompanie is spelt with a K

[pagius]

I used that same name index, but my research skills go back to the days when indexing was typically on card index or hand-pasted catalogues, not done digitally, so perhaps I'm used to applying lots of guile to find stuff!

One needs to get inside the heads of those who made the original catalogue.

So what name is he filed under in the main index if not dedman/deadman?

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/dedman

Can you post a link?

I'm used to finding many odd variants of my own name (Agius) on ancestry but I've tried every which way with Dedman on this one!

[pagius]

Fantastic picture. Please pass my appreciation on to William's granddaughter.

William will certainly have known my own grandfather having both been part of the original establishment of 12/KRRC.

It's very nice to see an image of one of his comrades.

Couple more for you Mark.

Not sure where the group photo would be. Looks like UK but he has his Seargent stripes which he didn't get until after he'd arrived on the western front.