Old Owl Posted 9 December , 2015 Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Hi All, I wonder if anyone can enlighten me regarding the above lady who served during WW1 and who was awarded the single BWM for service in Malta. She has two medal index cards, one under her maiden name and one under her married name. Both MIC's give: 'Theatre of War first served in: 'Malta' and 'Date of Entry therein: 31/1/14' Each MIC refers to the other, ie. 'See Downie' and 'See Bowley' and on each is noted against the entry for the BWM Roll: 'VAD/101a--page 37' On the Downie MIC there is no entry under Corps and only 'Cerical Work' under Rank, whereas on the Bowley MIC the entry under Corps is 'S.I.B. Malta' and 'Civilian Female, MI5' and again 'Clerical Work' under Rank. Does S.I.B. stand for 'Special Investigations Bureau' or similar? The date of entry: 31/1/14 is a little strange too! There was a thread on the Forum in 2009 regarding 'Women in MI5' or similar, however no conclusion appears to have been arrived at, although there was some mention of a book being published in the future. If anyone can advise what exactly Betty was involved in or where I could look, then I would be most grateful. Cheers, Robert PS Her single BWM is named to B.M.Downie, V.A.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yperman Posted 9 December , 2015 Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Forum experts may shoot me down in flames but I dimly recall in the 1980s in the British Army the Special Investigations Bureau was the military police equivalent of CID. Yperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 9 December , 2015 Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Whatever she did in Malta, she didn't do it for very long as for most of the war she was employed by the Central Work Rooms producing surgical requisites and garments. This card cross references to another in the name of Bowley, so the right person, though nothing under Downie. Betty Manners Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 9 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Whatever she did in Malta, she didn't do it for very long as for most of the war she was employed by the Central Work Rooms producing surgical requisites and garments. This card cross references to another in the name of Bowley, so the right person, though nothing under Downie. Betty Manners Sue Hi Sue, Thank you for your input. Her surname was definitely Downie and she appears to have married to become Bowley, so obviously not the Betty Manners to which you refer. Elizabeth (Betty) Manners Downie was born in Scotland the daughter of Robert Manners Downie and Elizabeth Henderson Downie. The family lived in Cheshire from circa 1901, so the London address does not tally with this family. Do you have any other ideas why the MIC refers to her as a VAD? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 9 December , 2015 Share Posted 9 December , 2015 But quite a coincidence then that Miss Betty Manners became Mrs. Betty Manners Bowley on the BRCS cards. If she was working for the intelligence services in Malta prior to the war maybe she had a second life and a second identity in London. Or do I just read too much fiction? She doesn't appear in the BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers under any of those names, but there are omissions, particularly if she was in Malta pre-war. I don't have access to the medal roll but the dates of service should be on there - 31/1/14 does seem unlikely. But then in the world of espionage who knows! There's no real problem with having a VAD clerk - there were many hundreds of them, but I reckon she was a secret agent working from a classy London address while sewing shirts for soldiers. It's adding up to the basis for a great book. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 9 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2015 But quite a coincidence then that Miss Betty Manners became Mrs. Betty Manners Bowley on the BRCS cards. If she was working for the intelligence services in Malta prior to the war maybe she had a second life and a second identity in London. Or do I just read too much fiction? She doesn't appear in the BRCS Register of Overseas Volunteers under any of those names, but there are omissions, particularly if she was in Malta pre-war. I don't have access to the medal roll but the dates of service should be on there - 31/1/14 does seem unlikely. But then in the world of espionage who knows! There's no real problem with having a VAD clerk - there were many hundreds of them, but I reckon she was a secret agent working from a classy London address while sewing shirts for soldiers. It's adding up to the basis for a great book. Sue Indeed the plot thickens--I do wonder if I/we are getting over-excited and romantic about the hard-working but potentially mundane career of a VAD clerk. Surely not!!? I am going straight for the film--no point in bothering with the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 9 December , 2015 Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 9 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Forum experts may shoot me down in flames but I dimly recall in the 1980s in the British Army the Special Investigations Bureau was the military police equivalent of CID. Yperman Many thanks Yperman--possibly the S.I.B. was the military branch of MI5 around the WW1 period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yperman Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 old owl, S.I.B -Special Investigation Branch (sorry I said bureau earlier) in the 1970s and 80s was - if I remember right- just the red caps' equivalent of CID. According to C. Andrews' The Defence of the Realm the authorised history of MI5' there was in 1903 a small department called M03 which performed a similar counter espionage role to the later MI5. The modern MI5 began in 1909 as the Secret Service Bureau which included both the future MI5 and MI6. Its total staff consisted of just two officers - a 50 year old Commander RN and an army captain. A further officer was recruited in 1912. Even by the end of 1914 MI5 ( now known as MO5 (g) ) had only 40 personnel all seemingly based in London (though thereafter the service grew considerably). Hope this helps, Yperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 10 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2015 old owl, S.I.B -Special Investigation Branch (sorry I said bureau earlier) in the 1970s and 80s was - if I remember right- just the red caps' equivalent of CID. According to C. Andrews' The Defence of the Realm the authorised history of MI5' there was in 1903 a small department called M03 which performed a similar counter espionage role to the later MI5. The modern MI5 began in 1909 as the Secret Service Bureau which included both the future MI5 and MI6. Its total staff consisted of just two officers - a 50 year old Commander RN and an army captain. A further officer was recruited in 1912. Even by the end of 1914 MI5 ( now known as MO5 (g) ) had only 40 personnel all seemingly based in London (though thereafter the service grew considerably). Hope this helps, Yperman Hi Yperman, Thank you, this is certainly very interesting. Is there a list of names anywhere? I wonder if one of the three officers was called Bowley? I ask this because Betty Manners Downie appears to have married someone by the name of Bowley--although this could have been in Malta rather than London. I feel certain that here is some sort of story buried amidst these rather scant details--somewhere!! Cheers, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 Finding that marriage has been driving me bonkers. She married Edmond M. Bowly [sic] registered in Bucklow, Cheshire in the second quarter of 1917. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 Edmond Mansel Bowly, Royal Navy (according to the law of Google) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 On a roll now - he died 'at sea', 1918, HMS Marlborough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 10 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2015 On a roll now - he died 'at sea', 1918, HMS Marlborough Many thanks Sue--you have been working hard! I must apologise for possibly sending you off at a tangent by spelling the name Bowley and not Bowly--however the second MIC shows the name as Bowly but this is crossed through and annotated Bowley for some reason--obviously a clerical error? The Cross of Sacrifice notes him as Lieut Edmond Mansel Bowly, R.N., H.M.S.Narbrough, Drowned 12/1/18, Commemorated on the Naval Memorial Portsmouth. CWGC records: ---------------Bowly, age 30. Son of the late Cmdr.J.E.Bowly, R.N. Husband of Elizabeth Manners Bowly, of 119 Cromwell Rd., South Kensington, London. Apparently HMS Narbrough and HMS Opal were lost in a storm whilst returning to their base a Scapa Flow. Unable to see and due to a navigational error it seems both destroyers sailed straight into Hesta Rock, South Ronaldsay with the loss of 188 lives--only one man from the two destroyers survived. Of course her marriage in Cheshire makes perfect sense because this is where she was living prior to the war and where her parents were still living during WW1. This is very useful and has now opened a completely new avenue to scrutinise. I wonder if Elizabeth Manners Bowly was actually working in London for MI5 in 1917, rather than Malta where she may have been a VAD and then transferred to S.I.B.Malta prior to moving back to the UK to work for MI5? So many questions! I guess there is much more work to do! Cheers, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 (edited) She remarried - to Francis G. G. Chilton, registered in Kensington, 3rd quarter 1923 - he was also Royal Navy. Seems likely that they had one son, Caryl Reginald Chilton, born in 1927. Elizabeth Chilton, born 22nd November 1891, died 1st quarter 1986, death registered in Tunbridge Wells. So a very long life. Sue Edited 12 December , 2015 by Sue Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Et Voila (or something similar) Betty Manners Bowly Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Many thanks Sue, these additions are quite revealing I think? as she appears to have served as a VAD for a relatively short period of 5 months only--was she then seconded to S.I.B.Malta? Obviously she was in London in 1917 when she married, so possibly by this time she could have been with MI5--or am I jumping to conclusions here? It becomes more intriguing at any rate! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2015 She remarried - to Francis G. G. Chilton, registered in Kensington, 3rd quarter 1923 - he was also Royal Navy. Seems likely that they had one daughter, Caryl R. Chilton, born in 1927. Elizabeth Chilton, born 22nd November 1891, died 1st quarter 1986, death registered in Tunbridge Wells. So a very long life. Sue Interestingly F.G.G.Chilton eventually became Rear Admiral, having served variously within the Royal Navy from 1895-1942. He was also ADC to the King in 1931 and had been an Assistant Director of Naval Intelligence between November,1915 and January,1918. This last fact may be significant? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yperman Posted 14 December , 2015 Share Posted 14 December , 2015 old owl Here she is in MO5(g) in 1914 :"clerical staff Miss D Bowie (January 1914)" cited in Andrews work above. MO5(g) changed its name to MI5 in January 1916, so that entry for her service in MI5 must be post that date and may suggest long service in MI5. She would presumably have been employed in D Branch of MI5 (Overseas and Imperial (including Irish) intelligence if she was still in Malta. The MI5 Victory celebration invitation of 1919 ( now that is a bit of militaria !) showed a "female secretary dressed in a male officer's tunic with a very short skirt and high heels carrying a note pad marked MI5". Maybe that is your lady... Yperman ( All data from Andrews work cited above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 14 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2015 old owl Here she is in MO5(g) in 1914 :"clerical staff Miss D Bowie (January 1914)" cited in Andrews work above. MO5(g) changed its name to MI5 in January 1916, so that entry for her service in MI5 must be post that date and may suggest long service in MI5. She would presumably have been employed in D Branch of MI5 (Overseas and Imperial (including Irish) intelligence if she was still in Malta. The MI5 Victory celebration invitation of 1919 ( now that is a bit of militaria !) showed a "female secretary dressed in a male officer's tunic with a very short skirt and high heels carrying a note pad marked MI5". Maybe that is your lady... Yperman ( All data from Andrews work cited above.) Many thanks Yperman, She was actually B.M.Downie in 1914--I think that perhaps I should buy a copy of the book now! Cheers, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowly Posted 7 September , 2022 Share Posted 7 September , 2022 Mention is made of a book or a film. Can someone please enlighten me? Thanks, Tim Jadckson. My great uncle, Lt Mansell Bowly was married to Elizabeth Manners Downie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 7 September , 2022 Admin Share Posted 7 September , 2022 12 minutes ago, Bowly said: Mention is made of a book or a film. Can someone please enlighten me? Thanks, Tim Jadckson. My great uncle, Lt Mansell Bowly was married to Elizabeth Manners Downie. Welcome to the forum. I think that comment was intended to suggest someone might write a book or produce a film rather than that those actually existed. Hopefully @Old Owl and @yperman may revisit the thread and assist you with your research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowly Posted 7 September , 2022 Share Posted 7 September , 2022 Thanks. My great uncle, Mansell Bowly was married to her.ie Elizabeth Manners Downie but he was lost at sea at South Ronaldsay in command of his ship, HMS Narborough in January 2018. She then married Admiral Chilton. I am therefore trying to establish any details of her or of her Chilton family so any help gratefully received. Regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 10 September , 2022 Share Posted 10 September , 2022 On 07/09/2022 at 17:01, Bowly said: 2018 Polite correction: a century earlier? (I managed to sign a cheque 1916 in 2016; blamed it on too much reading about Jutland... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowly Posted 14 September , 2022 Share Posted 14 September , 2022 Many thanks. Of course I should have said 1918! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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