Guest Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Can anyone tell me; 1. Is there a definitive list of the British Officers who were observers in the Russo-Japanese War? I only know of Hamilton and Brereton and (possibly) Yate. I assume there were many more. 2. Does anyone have a copy of "Reports from British Officers attached to the japanese and Russian Forces in the Field (3 Vols) 3. Does anyone have any of the books on the attached list click. If so, do any go into the detail of the 'lessons' or provide a summary? There are plenty of snippets on the alleged lessons of the Russo-Japanese War. I am curious to understand what was actually written by the British Officers who observed the war and how their observations may have impacted British Army doctrine. The context is to try and establish if these lessons were put into practice prior to the Great War. I am particularly interested in the tactical lessons of Infantry, artillery and machine-guns. Thanks MG Edit: Hamilton's "A Staff Officer's Scrap-book During the Russo-Japanese War" Does not go into specifics (online copy here click) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 I'd suggest having a look at http://www.archive.org/ for online versions of the older texts. sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 You could have a look at these files in class WO33 at Kew: 349 1904 Extracts from General Kuropatkin's instructions to commanders of the Russian Army in Manchuria 350 1904 Reports on the campaign in Manchuria in 1904, with photographs 351 1905 Estimated strength of Russian troops east of Lake Baikal, and Order of Battle 391B 1906 Report on the defence of Vladivostok 407 1906 General report on the Japanese system of military education and training 419 1907 Military resources of the Russian Empire 425 1906 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 432 1907 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 448 1908 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 473 1908 Handbook of the Japanese Army Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Major Mockler and Captain Holman are two other officers. Their report in two parts can be found here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11042515 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11042516 Section II of Part 1 might be the most useful. SECTION II.CavalryField artillery1902 Pattern Q.F. field gunMountain artilleryHeavy artilleryEmployment of artilleryArtillery entrenchmentsAmmunition in the fieldQuality and nature of ammunitionMachine guns and automatic riflesInfantryAll arms in co-operationOrder to the troops of the XVIIth Army Corps, dated 6th July 1905 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 I'd suggest having a look at http://www.archive.org/ for online versions of the older texts. sJ Thanks SeaJane... I have trawled the archive and some books did come up. MG You could have a look at these files in class WO33 at Kew: 349 1904 Extracts from General Kuropatkin's instructions to commanders of the Russian Army in Manchuria 350 1904 Reports on the campaign in Manchuria in 1904, with photographs 351 1905 Estimated strength of Russian troops east of Lake Baikal, and Order of Battle 391B 1906 Report on the defence of Vladivostok 407 1906 General report on the Japanese system of military education and training 419 1907 Military resources of the Russian Empire 425 1906 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 432 1907 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 448 1908 Extracts from diaries of officers attached to the Japanese Army 473 1908 Handbook of the Japanese Army Ron Thanks Ron...looks like I will be busy net time I visit Kew... MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Martin This is large topic, and many officers where involved, some secretly including Grierson. A good place to start is the Russo Japaneses War Research Society here http://www.russojapanesewar.com/ Wikipedia has a good piece on the observers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_attach%C3%A9s_and_observers_in_the_Russo-Japanese_War If you are referring to Green Volumes, I have those, and most of Grierson's secret Red ones . There where two official histories produced, the big blue one by Wavell, Swinton and Dawny, Full complete sets cost several thousand pounds, are are huge, and probably the finest Official Histories produced in the Twentieth Century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 As seaJane said, Archive.org is a source. Regarding the Reports, I can only see Volumes II and III on archive.org, but Volume I is available on the Hathi Trust Digital Library. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044019543073?urlappend=%3Bseq=7 Volume I https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar02lond Volume II https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar03lond Volume III There also appear to be volumes of the Official history on Archive.org, together with many other titles. Hathi Trust and the Digital Library of India also have some titles. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 As seaJane said, Archive.org is a source. Regarding the Reports, I can only see Volumes II and III on archive.org, but Volume I is available on the Hathi Trust Digital Library. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044019543073?urlappend=%3Bseq=7 Volume I https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar02lond Volume II https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar03lond Volume III There also appear to be volumes of the Official history on Archive.org, together with many other titles. Hathi Trust and the Digital Library of India also have some titles. Cheers Maureen These are different works. The First Volume is Gierson's Volume 1 Reports From Officers attached to Japanese Forces in the Field, I think 6 pairs text and maps volumes in total. The Second and Third Volumes are Reports From British Officers attached to Japanese and Japanese Forces in the Field, 3 text volumes and 2 map volumes. The firsts are bound in red and the second in green. Like I said a large topic, and confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrauerei Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 (edited) Colonel W.H.H. Waters was British military attache in Russia and Germany 1890-1917. His book "Secret and Confidential: The Experiences of a Military Attache" has quite a bit about his time as an observer in Manchuria with the Russian forces during the Russo-Japanese War. (And I do have a copy.) Edited 8 December , 2015 by IrishGunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Many thanks all I am aware of the publications that have been digitised - apologies for not making that clear - but useful to have them highlighted on the thread. Thanks. The online publications I have seen don't provide summaries of the tactical lessons. I am really trying to find someone who is familiar with the literature of the British Military Observers and whether any of the book provide a chapter or a summary of the tactical lessons. The 'Secret' volumes soud as if they might be the best hunting ground. I am simply trying to avoid having to buy scores of books in order to find the one book I do need to buy...if that makes sense... So...do any of the books mentioned provide any content in summary form of the tactical lessons? MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Martin I will look tonight at some of the volumes I have for tactical lesson summaries, and report back. I suspect it's the Volume 5th or 6th of the Grierson work. Grieson's work was reprinted several years ago and the full incomplete set cost stupidly over a thousand pounds. This was published: Reinventing Warfare 1914-18: Novel Munitions and Tactics of Trench Warfare, https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CwK4H1rRqPEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false and might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 As seaJane said, Archive.org is a source. Regarding the Reports, I can only see Volumes II and III on archive.org, but Volume I is available on the Hathi Trust Digital Library. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044019543073?urlappend=%3Bseq=7 Volume I https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar02lond Volume II https://archive.org/details/russojapanesewar03lond Volume III There also appear to be volumes of the Official history on Archive.org, together with many other titles. Hathi Trust and the Digital Library of India also have some titles. Cheers Maureen The first volume of the links shown above is interesting reading. Searchable too. Interestingly the Machine Guns appear to have been the Hotchkiss and not Maxims. Very surprising. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ibis Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Hi, I'm not sure this is exactly what you're looking for but both Bruce Menning's Bayonets Before Bullets: The Imperial Russian Army and John Steinberg's All the Tsar's Men: Russia's General Staff and the Fate of the Empire, 1898-1914 cover the war itself (though not in extensive detail) and then address Russia's attempts to learn the lessons of the war to be ready for the next conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Major-General Sir Thompson Capper (1863-1915) commanded the 7th Division during First Ypres 1914. He had seen active service in Chitral 1895, the Sudan and Boer Wars, and as a Lieut-Col. he was given a post as Professor at the Staff College Camberley during 1902-04 (Brevet Colonel Dec. 1904). He then moved to the Quetta Staff College as Colonel and Commandant until 1911. I don't know whether he went out to the Russo-Japanese conflict from India, but he certainly absorbed and preached at Quetta the lessons learned; including an emphasis on "attacking dash" in order to capture entrenched positions. He was also impressed with the defensibility of trenches when sited on a forward slope and given strong overhead cover. This rebounded however at Ypres 1914, when he ordered his troops to dig in on forward slopes, as with the 1st RWF at Zandvoorde. In slit trenches with no overhead cover, the result was that they took a hammering from enemy artillery which could clearly see them. His own sense of dash and duty led him to get much further forward then he should have been during the Battle of Loos, personally urging his troops into the attack (I think he joined in with a platoon of the ?Worcesters, unbeknownst to its officer), and he fell victim to a sniper. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 I thought this was interesting. Page 215 of Vol III on Maureen's post #7 published in 1907 And.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 8 December , 2015 Share Posted 8 December , 2015 Martin, I've looked at the green volumes Reports From British Officers Attached to the Japanese and Russian Field Forces in the Field. Volumes 1 and II are a narrative of the military operations Volumes III pages 106 to 301 are the tactical lessons learned. Will look at Red ones if I get a chance latter tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 I have started looking at the Red Grierson Volumes: Reports From Officers Attached to the Japanese Officers in the Field. I believe 150 copies where produced of each volume. Volume III Has 387 pages on battlefield narrative 367, mainly the battle of Mukdin, each chapter is a different observer. Pages 388 to 581 are tactical and organization lessons such as: Russian Cavalry Reconnaissance on the Japaneses left Flank Russian Notes on Japanese Tactics from captured Russian Documents Night Attacks Japanese Field Artillery Japanese Cavalry Ammunition Supply Japanese Clothing So each volume has lessons learned More to follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 thanks MartH... if you spot anything with regards to MGs and particularly Maxims it would be useful. I of course don't have the red books.MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 Martin Just come back to this with Volume 1, of the Grierson ones. Similar layout as before, narrative to page 291, then specialist reports. We have for example: Training in Attack of the Japanese Infantry Company Machine guns, uses in the Japanese Army and Description 3 pages... Apparently only the Calvary where the only units armed with them, but one of their own lessons learnt was to deploy them with the infantry. Which his next report say they did, Hotchkiss tray fed models, 6.5mm, air cooled. It says the Japanese particularly disliked Russian Machine guns on the flanks. Must review more volumes then scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 thanks MartH... I of course don't have the red books.MG MartH pointed out in post 8 that the online Volume I quoted in my post 7 is in fact the Volume I Grierson book, which is one of the red books. This has a Preface by Grierson. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044019543073?urlappend=%3Bseq=7 Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 Ernest Troubridge - then Captain but later Rear-Admiral - was present at Chemulpo Bay and Port Arthur actions. He was court-martialled in WW1 for failing to engage SMSs Goeben and Breslau, allowing them to escape to Constantinople. Had he done so, he might well have failed to damage them anyway - Goeben outranged his armoured cruisers and both were faster. How much damage his squadron suffered would mostly have depended on whether the German commander, Souchon, decided to fight or evade; and since delivery to Turkey was already planned he'd probably have turned away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 10 December , 2015 Share Posted 10 December , 2015 MartH pointed out in post 8 that the online Volume I quoted in my post 7 is in fact the Volume I Grierson book, which is one of the red books. This has a Preface by Grierson. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044019543073?urlappend=%3Bseq=7 Cheers Maureen Life is a bit fraught here, and Maureen is right, one is online. I will continue to research and scan bits when completed. I am being to think the Red volumes are extremely important, and Martin is best paced to use them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Can anyone tell me; 1. Is there a definitive list of the British Officers who were observers in the Russo-Japanese War? I only know of Hamilton and Brereton and (possibly) Yate. I assume there were many more. Yes. I have "The Military Side of Japanese Life' by Captain Malcolm Kennedy, Scottish Rifles, which has a list of all the British Officers who were observers at that time. And yes, Yate was there translating Japanese war reports for the WO. Also see this: https://books.google.com/books?id=bjUwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PR2&lpg=PR2&dq=CAL+Yate,+japanese+reports&source=bl&ots=Jwbh7aeo-n&sig=l-fS6sxryM0A72SxrcDfvzGMD5g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb2bSIidPJAhWJ5yYKHRPGAYkQ6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=CAL%20Yate%2C%20japanese%20reports&f=false On page 1043 Yate has an essay on the merits of the 4 company system and after this immediately an essay written by a Frenchman who was an observer, comments on Japanese tactics. If you would like an entire list of BO's I'll get it out to you tomorrow some time. For starters, Brigadier General Arthur Synnot-Hart was an observer with Yate and was later badly wounded commanding 6th Infantry Brigade in 1918 losing both legs. Ironically, his half Japanese son from an earlier union with a Japanese woman while studying Japanese in 1903-4, died in a Soviet Prisoner of War camp in 1946. Hope this helps, S78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Here is the list. For just three years since the start of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance there was a remarkable number of British Officers who passed the exacting Japanese exam. 00000378.tif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Martin Search on "British observers of the russo japanese war philip towle" you will find an interesting article. He is the expert and has written extensively on the subject. I personally don't think you will get a full list of the observes until we compile it ourselves, I am amazed how the bibliographic references and learned articles do not include the 2 Official Histories, and one not published, the 2 published sets of reports, (I've often wondered if there was a restricted report on the Russian Side), the medical and sanitary reports etc. God know what else was produced, Simla printing presses where very active at this time. Oh and don't forget the Admiralty reports, that has been reprinted too. The research and writing on the Russo-Japanese War where not just done but the British and Indian Army, but US, German, French, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now