German cemeteries in France

[JWK]

Is everyone sure this is the German cemetary in Comines ?

Only Comines I know is north of Lille. so for 7-8 soldiers of this cemetary apparently to be reburied in St-Laurent-Blangy near Arras, some 65 kms to the south, sounds illogical.

Unless ofcourse there's a Comines near Arras that I don't know off!

 

[PascalMallet]

25 minutes ago, JWK said:

Is everyone sure this is the German cemetary in Comines ?

Only Comines I know is north of Lille. so for 7-8 soldiers of this cemetary apparently to be reburied in St-Laurent-Blangy near Arras, some 65 kms to the south, sounds illogical.

Unless ofcourse there's a Comines near Arras that I don't know off!

 

 

As I have been working on that matter for few years, I can tell you it is for sure Comines in North of France. As I said before, all cemetery (about 4,300 soldiers) has been moved to St-Laurent-Blangy (5-6 km from Arras) in 1961, as it was using place in center of Comines (see my posts dated last week).

[PascalMallet]

Thank you Christine and GreyC,

 

A quick look at Google says that "Eisbahn" is a "patinoire" in French (place where you skate), a "rink" in English (?). I was hoping there was a family name, but it is not so.

 

As all graves I identified on the picture are dated Sep.-Nov. 1915 (Reihengrab upto 25) and you can see many others, we could say it was shot in winter 1916-1917 and sent as well.

 

Pascal

[JWK]

 

12 minutes ago, PascalMallet said:

 

As I have been working on that matter for few years, I can tell you it is for sure Comines in North of France. As I said before, all cemetery (about 4,300 soldiers) has been moved to St-Laurent-Blangy (5-6 km from Arras) in 1961, as it was using place in center of Comines (see my posts dated last week).

 

Ah right, that clears it up. Should have read your posts before answering, apologies!

Edited 17 October , 2017 by JWK

[PascalMallet]

22 minutes ago, JWK said:

Ah right, that clears it up. Should have read your posts before answering, apologies!

 

No problem ;-)

 

I got an email with another post from you but I can't see it here (???). Here it is: "PDF nr 6 : Ignaz Pawelka  ?, died  30 aug 1917 , buried Neuville-St Vaast"

 

Thank you for that. Now you help me, I read better "Patchelka" but I can't find any on VDK website. Also, date should be 1915 as other graves I identified around, and burial should be St-Laurent too..., unless he was moved to Neuville by his family?... I now nothing about that option. If it occured, it should be done in 1920's, much before they move to St-Laurent. It is possible as I found a document dated 1920 and speaking about 5,078 Germans buried in Comines, and only about 4,300 in 1958 + 308 who have been moved to Quesnoy-sur-Deûle in 1922 (info VDK). Difference is about 480 soldiers who could have been moved by their family. As document with number 5,078 was done to get money from the government, we can also think that number was a bit bigger than reality...

 

 

[JWK]

@Pascal

 

Yes, I did post that possible name of one of the graves on your PDF, but then I was in doubt: Comines <-> Arras.

So I deleted it (There is a "Hide" option when you edit, which apparently is the same as "delete" as there doesn't seem to be an "un-hide" option , so once you "hide" a post it's gone...)

And Ignaz Pawelka was buried in Neuville-St Vaast, not in Blangy. If he was origanlly buried in Comines then why would his family decide to bury him there, and not in Blangy with his mates, or at home in the family-grave?

 

Also, on second looks, his surname does not quite look like Pawelka, there are more letters. But then with Polish names you get all sorts on gravestones/markers and in Regimental histories! So it could well be Patchelka.

I don't know how long Comines was "in operation", and he's a few rows back from the front so perhaps it is him? But then why was he buried in Neuville and not in Blangy: I do not know.

 

There's also another Ignaz: Ludwig Ignaz Stu.../Sti......?  , but I can't find him in the VDK database. All Ludwig Ignaz's there are WW2

 

 

 

 

 

[AliceF]

13 hours ago, GreyC said:

With regard to the 2nd line of your English translation I´d suggest: Until now it [Comines] was not taken under fire.

The first word in the 8th line of the original German text is an abbreviation for "und" -u.

That makes sense! Thanks!

Christine

[PascalMallet]

11 hours ago, JWK said:

@Pascal

 

Yes, I did post that possible name of one of the graves on your PDF, but then I was in doubt: Comines <-> Arras.

So I deleted it (There is a "Hide" option when you edit, which apparently is the same as "delete" as there doesn't seem to be an "un-hide" option , so once you "hide" a post it's gone...)

And Ignaz Pawelka was buried in Neuville-St Vaast, not in Blangy. If he was origanlly buried in Comines then why would his family decide to bury him there, and not in Blangy with his mates, or at home in the family-grave?

 

Also, on second looks, his surname does not quite look like Pawelka, there are more letters. But then with Polish names you get all sorts on gravestones/markers and in Regimental histories! So it could well be Patchelka.

I don't know how long Comines was "in operation", and he's a few rows back from the front so perhaps it is him? But then why was he buried in Neuville and not in Blangy: I do not know.

 

There's also another Ignaz: Ludwig Ignaz Stu.../Sti......?  , but I can't find him in the VDK database. All Ludwig Ignaz's there are WW2

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for that hint about "Hide" I didn't know. Obviously, if you don't do it quickly enough, the email is sent anyway (I also received your first "apologies").

 

You are right about Neuville, it doesn't make sense his family has moved him there. I just thought he was moved elsewhere, so we can't find him now in St-Laurent (and on VDK as they don't manage private graves). As I will be in St-Laurent for Nov. 11th, I will look at the alphabetical register and search for "Pa..." Same for "Sti" or "Stu". For him, I first thought about "Jonaz" but no result in St-Laurent either.

 

About Comines, Germans went there early October 1914 (front line was only 6-8 km away) and stay almost to the end of war. On the picture, you can see a part of cemetery dedicated to 117th and 123rd Res. Inf. Divisions which buried their men in "Reihengrab" (see a map I posted here maybe one month ago). Picture shows graves 11 to 25 (out of 97) and other men I found died Sep.-Dec. 1915. No (good) reason to find a men buried in 1917 there.

 

No hint about other crosses? :-)

[AOK4]

I have this card somewhere as well. I'll check whether I can see more on a 1200 dpi scan.

 

Jan

 

[PascalMallet]

6 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I have this card somewhere as well. I'll check whether I can see more on a 1200 dpi scan.

 

Jan

 

Thank Jan. As I said, I did a 2400 dpi scan. Maybe you card is better than mine, but I advice you to use same resolution as I did, or maybe more on just a part of the picture.

[JWK]

10 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

No hint about other crosses? :-)

 

 

PDF 2: Paul Weigelt?

 

[AliceF]

On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎06 at 21:39, ejwalshe said:

I am getting better at finding those cemeteries which have bad Google Map references at Volksbund.  Using a variety of tools at the TracesOfWar website, CWGC and photos in Google Earth.  Like you say, Christine, it is not easy!

#585

Hi Ted!

Finally I got through my list of German cemeteries (Volksbund) in France and completed my kmz file.

I'll stop there (no intention in doing any other countries or any more cemeteries).

I got the impression that 10-20% of the cemeteries were wrongly placed at the Volksbund website and at the end it seemed to be 50% - it got a bit tiresome at the end.

How did you manage to the whole West + CWGC with German burials?

 

Anyway most cemeteries I put at the same location as you did, but since my last message on this issue I came to different conclusions than you in the cases of:

 

Azannes I and II

Bouligny

Montemedy (I think we got the same location but I added two more)

Tryon

Lagarde

Plaine-de-Walsch

 

Not sure what is right.

 

Christine

 

German cemeteries WW1.kmz

[ejwalshe]

Thanks for the great work, Christine...I will look into these cemeteries you have mentioned again...it takes a few tries to get it right sometimes!

 

Cheers, Ted

[PascalMallet]

On 18/10/2017 at 22:03, JWK said:

PDF 2: Paul Weigelt?

 

Yes, I think you're right. Thank you. For others, I will look at the book and search for other names.

[AliceF]

Pascal, sorry, but I could not read any of the names.

 

Christine

[PascalMallet]

9 minutes ago, AliceF said:

Pascal, sorry, but I could not read any of the names.

 

Christine

 

No problem Christine. As I said, I will read the books at St-Laurent in Nov. 11th, if they are still there, as they keep them away during winter time. I guess they take them only on Nov. 11th as CWGC, SESMA (VDK), and French veterans all come in main military cemeteries to put flowers (see picture I shot last January). Now, it's time for Peace and Friendship.

 

 

 

[AliceF]

Yes, these books. Sometimes there are now available digital, but probably because someone did a scan.

I have also got the impression that the Volksbund adds continuously new information on their website, maybe this will include at some stage the list of persons buried.

Have you tried there app? http://www.volksbund.de/mediathek/mediathek-detail/digitaler-friedhof.html

No idea what's on there.

 

The 11th of November does not seem to be very much remembered in Germany - or at least I have not.

It was always the 9th of November (end of Kaiserreich, Reichskristallnacht, and later fall of the wall).

And then of course  there was  Allerheiligen & Allerseelen (remembering the dead), Volkstrauertag (remembering the dead of both wars) and in my childhood Buss- und Bettag (day of repentance and prayer). All in November. And then in my family the dead of two brothers who died 41 years apart at the 8th of November (one in WW2 the other 41 years later - both married to my grandma Alice).

 

Advent was a relief.

 

Christine

 

[PascalMallet]

Thank you for those enlightments about your many celebrations. I never thought that day was celebrated in Germany. I think we only share May 8th.

 

Thank you for this app. I have downloaded it. Now, it only gives information about 4 cemeteries : Nationaal Ereveld Loenen, Langemark, Vladslo, and Golm. I guess other will be added later on.

 

I looked to Vladslo. 182 pages (?) to download from the Cloud... about 45' with my very lazy network! And no way to do it from my computer. At the end, all texts are in French for me, but not so many pictures, and no lists. Here are two pictures I shot from my iPhone screen.

 

Just in case... and without to be afraid to repeat... I will be in Beauvais (60), Amiens (80), Arras (62), and Lille (59) within 3 weeks, so I can go (little) around to take (few) pictures or else if someone here needs it.

 

 

[AliceF]

Pascal, thank so much that you tried the app - I will do as well - now that I know that Golm is in it (ww2 - burial place of my grandfather - all much better documented than ww1)!

 

Well, maybe I should clarify that the 9th of November was not celebrated, but remembered (far too overshadowed by 1938 to get celebrated).

 

Christine

 

[ejwalshe]

Surely not!  Christine:  "The 11th of November does not seem to be very much remembered in Germany - or at least I have not."

 

Infamous day in German history - the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

 

So infamous in fact, a certain Bavarian born in Austria tracked down General Foch's train car in which the Versailles Treaty was signed at Rethondes, only to have a French delegation sign armistice terms on 21 June 1940, in the exact place where the train car was in 1918. 

 

Ostensibly, the signing was in "reparation of the wrongs inflicted by force on the German Reich."

[AliceF]

Sorry, I apologise! I felt already when writing this I was getting into one of these many traps.... uff ... and then combined with lack of knowledge.

I started thinking about how "Germans" felt about the end of world wars - and thought I only get trapped more and should get out of this somehow.

Really sorry! I should clarify: this is a personal experience - I should stick to it in this context. I learned at school and at home a lot about ww2 - and almost nothing about ww1 - so 9th of November was always much more connected to 1938 than other events in November 1918 - for me.

 

Christine

 

[ejwalshe]

I learned nothing in school about The Great War and it's follow up (Canada still feels the Great Divide among our peoples which was exacerbated in the final year of The Great War, and therefore, such subjects are still taboo in the classroom - though, I do not follow that logic). 

I've only begun to understand the shame and humiliation the people of Germany have felt after speaking with some of them in their country this year.

Those I have talked to are unanimous in their condemnation of that Bavarian.

I understand and feel their shame and humiliation stems from the fact this creature was democratically elected (this dictator did not come to power by force).

I must add my comments here are not allowed over at the CEFSG (they venture out of bounds of the C.E.F. & The Great War).

And, I found there is nothing you should feel sorry for, Christine...I always appreciate your input.

Cheers, Ted

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, ejwalshe said:

Surely not!  Christine:  "The 11th of November does not seem to be very much remembered in Germany - or at least I have not."

 

Infamous day in German history - the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

 

So infamous in fact, a certain Bavarian born in Austria tracked down General Foch's train car in which the Versailles Treaty was signed at Rethondes, only to have a French delegation sign armistice terms on 21 June 1940, in the exact place where the train car was in 1918. 

 

Ostensibly, the signing was in "reparation of the wrongs inflicted by force on the German Reich."

 

11 november is the signing of the armistice, the Treaty of Versailles was more than half a year later (when the Germans had no choice but to sign).

Jan

[JWK]

Re the Volksbund app:

I find “Nationaal Ereveld Loenen” a, looking for the right word, a rather “unexpected” addition to an app of the "German Wargraves Commission".

The Dutch “National Field of Honour” at Loenen (between Apeldoorn and Arnhem) is the last restingplace for some 4000 Dutch soldiers, resistance-fighters, political prisoners, Engelandvaarders, forced labourers etc  who died during WW2 at the hands of the Germans.

 

But it's a good thing they've included it in their app. Hiding history does not make it go away.

 

And WW1 "ofcourse" was not taught at Dutch schools. "We were neutral back then, nothing to do with us"seems to have been the line of thinking.

Instead we were taught about Tsjang-Kai-Tsjek (sp?) of all people!

More or less the first thing I learned about "WW1 in the Netherlands" was when I found out my greatgrandfather had received the (Belgian) Albert medal "for help to the Belgian refugees"

[ejwalshe]

Thanks, JWK:  My bad, confusing the Armistice with the Treaty of Versailles (and I was wondering where all the reparation talk was in the Armistice - of course, it is found in the treaty).

 

P.S.:  Chiang Kai-shek on this side of the ocean...one of those american puppets.

Edited 25 October , 2017 by ejwalshe