Simon Brown Posted 26 November , 2015 Share Posted 26 November , 2015 Wonder if some helpful knowledgeable person could enlighten me. Was nattering to a mate who showed me this old sword and thought i would know if it was a WW1 German sword, which is what he believed it was. I have no idea but it intrigued me, as it had clear marks that i could not make any sense of either. Any help very welcome. Thank you Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 November , 2015 Share Posted 26 November , 2015 Well it is certainly an Imperial German Artillery Sword, but whether it was still in use during the GW is another matter. That may need some further research. The markings stamped across the guard are the regimental unit markings which identifies the exact unit that this particular sword was originally issued to. 12. A. F. 5. 141 will indicate issue to the Saxon Foot Artillery regiment ..... Kgl. Sächs. 1. Fußartillerie-Regt. Nr.12, 5. Batterie, Waffe Nr.141 (Metz) XIX AK Cheers, S>S EDIT. Okay I had a quick check and this model sword appears to be known as the M1845 Saxon Faschinenmesser, a sidearm also used for chopping brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Brown Posted 26 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2015 That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. So interesting. I presume you think it predates wwi. Thanks Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 26 November , 2015 Share Posted 26 November , 2015 This is the typical pattern of an artillery sword Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 November , 2015 Share Posted 26 November , 2015 ... EDIT. Okay I had a quick check and this model sword appears to be known as the M1845 Saxon Faschinenmesser, a sidearm also used for chopping brush. Travelling and so I'll check on the marking and the exact type when back in Ankara, but just to note that (as was also noted on another thread) the Faschinenmesser was designed for cutting brushwood for the making of fascines, not just as a machette! The fact the marking has the Prussian numbering system for regiments in the unified system suggests to me that this was done post-1871 after unification, but I need to check on that. The thing itself and the marking may well pre-date WW1, but that does not mean it was not around then - see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=233646&hl=amiens Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Brown Posted 26 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2015 Fritz and Trajan Thanks for the additional information. Found this all new and interesting. Certainly learnt plenty today. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiesoldier Posted 27 November , 2015 Share Posted 27 November , 2015 Hi, Just some info an issue German Artillery sword. The one picture is more than likely a private purchase and used for 'walking out' etc. The issue swords are much more robust. The sword featured below is a 1915 dated war artillery sword and features a composite grip, mounted onto a riveted steel back strap and 'P' shaped guard. The back strap and underside of the guard are arsenal stamped. The 76 cm slightly curved blade is in good condition. There is a SIMSON & CO, SUHL maker mark, and the underside spine is stamped 'o' and under the langet is a ‘J’ the . After 1908 the scabbards were painted or blued, after 1892, the lower ring was removed from the scabbards, and the blades were shortened at this time as well, with all new production being with the shorter blade. This was done for several reasons, one being the length of the sabre when installed on the saddle, interfering with obstacles and causing injury to the horses, and the Prussian decision to go with thrusting as opposed to only slashing. When the blades were shortened, it became possible to use this sabre as a thrusting weapon, The weapon was carried by the Supply Columns of Army Corps, Artillery and MG Units as well. These were issued to the artillery Sergeant's and NCO's along with the long barrelled Mausers for defence and protection during set up and withdrawal of the guns on the battlefield. These are very popular among collectors, not only for their weight and size but also because these were one of the only a handful of swords which were issued for combat, the remainder being purely ceremonial.The "real" cavalry carried the M1889 Degen or the M1852/79 Saber. This is a Prussian procured and issued weapon, the Bavarians, Wurttembergers, and Saxons had their own theories on this weapon and its design. The grips went thru several changes on the short M1811, first they used hardwood with cord wrap, covered in thin leather, then in the 1880's Bakelite and other thermosetting plastics were invented, so the Germans began to use this for the grips on many of the their edged weapons, both at the Armouries and Commercially. During the Great War, they used hardwood, walnut or other wood to replace the previous models. German Collectors call such wooden grips "Kriegfertigung" or "War Finished". Total length: 92 cm Sword length: 90 cm Blade length: 76 cm This one is mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 27 November , 2015 Share Posted 27 November , 2015 German shortswords/Faschinenmessers have been discussed in a couple of threads recently. I have been on the lookout for a really good reference for them showing which(if any)actually/likely saw service in the war. (Any suggestions welcome!!) On the attached pic are three more patterns. The bottom example M1864 U/M certainly did as it appears in period pics as per the one Trajan showed of artillery in around 1916. The other two working up are, I believe, the M1852 (a shortened 1849 artillery??)and the Baverian M92 (converted Werder bayonet). Has anyone seen any evidence eg. period pictures/references showing the Saxon 1845, M52 or M92 in wartime use? I have seen I think M92's in 'studio shots' but non of them being carried in the field. They were all pretty well obsolete by 1914 but as we know a lot of old kit made one last appearance!! Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 German shortswords/Faschinenmessers have been discussed in a couple of threads recently. I have been on the lookout for a really good reference for them showing which(if any)actually/likely saw service in the war. (Any suggestions welcome!!) Thanks for showing those! According to the German forums I have seen the standard work on these Faschinenmesser is: Faschinenmesser: Preußen, Sachsen, Bayern, Württemberg by Peter-Michel Wolfgang (2012), all in German, but good illustrations... Privately published but I think Amazon.de has it available. It doesn't really cover GW use but basically anything that was around was used! I was reading something somewhere recently in one of my German texts about continued use of pre-1871 material into the GW and later period. Can't find that right now but I do have to hand a Heeres instruction of 22 February 1920 that mentions how the Kavelleriedegen M.89 was now to start being phased out of service... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Wonder if some helpful knowledgeable person could enlighten me. ... ... EDIT. Okay I had a quick check and this model sword appears to be known as the M1845 Saxon Faschinenmesser, a sidearm also used for chopping brush. Yes, Saxon Faschinenmesser M.1845. According to Wolfgang's Faschinenmesser, 82-86, this took the handle model from the Prussian 1778 n.A. version, but with a much more robust crossguard and blade, so becoming the 'standard' on which other States modelled their Faschinenmesser. If this is an early (i.e., pre-1971) Saxon issue, then I gather that there should be a small crown on the lobe at the end of one of the arms of the crossguard. The unit marking, however, conforms to the 1877 pattern, although in theory, as far as I can see from the list of official weapon abbreviations, these M.1845's were no longer in service use as by then the Artillerie-Faschinenmesser M.71 was the 'standard'. These weapons were originally intended for cutting brushwood which was then fastened together to make fascines, the 16-19th century version of sandbags, in a way! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Hi, thanks for the heads up on the book, will have a look for that ...... Yes my take on it is like you, that everything and anything was dug out of store and used in the first couple of years at least. As I said, never seen the 1845, 1852 or '92 in 'field' shots but I somehow suspect they might have been out albeit on a limited scale. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Has anyone seen any evidence eg. period pictures/references showing the Saxon 1845, M52 or M92 in wartime use? I have seen I think M92's in 'studio shots' but non of them being carried in the field. They were all pretty well obsolete by 1914 but as we know a lot of old kit made one last appearance!! Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Just a studio pic, but to my eye the hilt looks to be that of the M1852. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Well, certainly not a regular bayonet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Brilliant!! Thank you Motojosh ... Not seen this pic before. Yes I'm sure you are 'spot on' and its an M52. Studio yes .... but definitely wartime, is it dated? All previous pics I have seen have been probably 1880's or earlier. The markings on my example seem to suggest a possible post 1900 issue and this pic reinforces my guess that these were still around in 1914. Could be a studio 'prop' but the way his knot is carried around the hilt suggests not. Artillery - but not sure if its 20 or 26 on the cover? Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 29 November , 2015 Share Posted 29 November , 2015 Brilliant!! Thank you Motojosh ... Not seen this pic before. Yes I'm sure you are 'spot on' and its an M52. Studio yes .... but definitely wartime, is it dated? All previous pics I have seen have been probably 1880's or earlier. The markings on my example seem to suggest a possible post 1900 issue and this pic reinforces my guess that these were still around in 1914. Could be a studio 'prop' but the way his knot is carried around the hilt suggests not. Artillery - but not sure if its 20 or 26 on the cover? Rolyboy. The article where this pic came from states the photo was from '15 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576335/How-Germany-crucified-Hidden-100-years-astonishing-images-German-soldiers-haunted-spectre-defeat-paying-ultimate-price-captured-camera-one-brothers-arms.html Here's another M52 pic: 65th Field Artillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 30 November , 2015 Share Posted 30 November , 2015 Motojosh .....Thank you yet again!! The daily Mail attachment was very interesting, another one that had passed me by. Have just found a picture of a Baverian artillery man carrying an M92 - so getting the sort of evidence I was after. Keep them coming if you find any more !! .... but thank you again. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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