Wounded 1st July 1916

[old sparky]

I am trying to find out what happened to my great uncle who was wounded as 5235 Pte A Green with 1 Hampshires on Redan Ridge and was later killed near Bailleul in April 1918 with 1 Wiltshires as 29556 Cpl A Green. I have scoured Ancestry etc but have not been able to find any service records for him and I am not well placed to visit Kew for casualty lists. Anecdotal 'evidence' suggests that he was evacuated to UK after being wounded on 1 July 1916 before being rebadged and sent back to France. I would like very much to discover the nature of his wound(s), where he was hospitalised and the circumstances of his transfer to the Wiltshires but I have no idea how to proceed. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

[KevinBattle]

OK, let's try to make this a leetle easier, please....

He was killed 12 April, just stating "April" meant that 14 "A Green"'s turned up.

You realise therefore, that it's a fairly common name....

GREEN, A. Rank: Corporal. Service No: 29556. Date of Death: 12/04/1918.

Regiment/Service: Wiltshire Regiment 1st Bn

Grave Reference: X. R. 5. Cemetery: STRAND MILITARY CEMETERY.

'Charing Cross' was the name given by the troops to a point at the end of a trench called the Strand, which led into Ploegsteert Wood. In October 1914, two burials were made at this place, close to an Advanced Dressing Station. The cemetery was not used between October 1914 and April 1917, but in April-July 1917 Plots I to VI were completed. Plots VII to X were made after the Armistice, when graves were brought in from some small cemeteries and from the battlefields lying mainly between Wytschaete and Armentieres. The cemetery was in German hands for a few months in 1918, but was very little used by them. The following are some of the burial grounds concentrated into Strand Military Cemetery:-

..........

LA BASSE-VILLE GERMAN CEMETERY, WARNETON (West Flanders), on the road from La Basse-Ville to Warneton, contained the graves of 68 soldiers from the United Kingdom and one from South Africa who died in German hands, April-August, 1918.

How can you scour Ancestry if you don't have names, addresses, parents?

His Family didn't return the Final Verification Form, so we don't know his Christian name, his age or Next of Kin details....

So, what of those can you fill in?

Presumably he's from the South/South West to be in the Hampshire/Wiltshire Regiments...

Do you know anything else that could help us help you?

He was initially buried in La Basse Ville German Cemetery (which implies he died as a Prisoner of War in German hands).

A 1st July 1916 casualty may not be easy to trace even with an unusual surname, simply due to the huge number of wounded.

A little digging produces..

Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

Name: Arthur Green. Birth Place: Whitchurch, Hants. Residence: Whitchurch, Hampshire.

Death Date: 12 Apr 1918. Enlistment Place: Winchester

Rank: A Corporal. Regiment: Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire) Regiment. Battalion: 1st Battalion

Regimental Number: 29556. Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Comments: Formerly 7235, Hants Regiment.

The Medal Index Card shows he reached France on 28 August 1914, one of the early arrivals and thus entitled to the 1914 star and rose emblem as an "Old Contemptible".

A little more leads to the All Hallows Church, Whitchurch War Memorial website and shows

http://www.allhallowswhitchurch.org.uk/Activities/Other.aspx

Son of Edwin and Eliza Green. Husband of Edith Green. Age 30.

Name: Arthur Green. Spouse: Edith Daisy Herbert

Registration Year: 1908. Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep

Registration district: Whitchurch, Hampshire. Volume: 2c. Page: 537.

Name: Arthur Green. Registration Year: 1887. Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun

Registration district: Whitchurch, Hampshire. Volume: 2c. Page: 204.

One complication appears to be that Family Trees with Arthur Green born 16 April 1887 show a different marriage and his death in 1940.

Now, what more can you provide?

[old sparky]

I'm gob smacked Kevin. It took me weeks to get to the same point that you seem to have reached in apparently a matter of minutes. The only information I have that you haven't mention was that he was pulling pints in The Plough at Whitchurch when he was mobilised. I have 1 Hampshires' WD and have plotted his war in detail up to 1st July. I also made the same assumption, that he had died in German hands, from the burial records in his CWGC entry and the 1 Wilts WD gives a general idea of where he died. I've read up on the Hampshires' battle on Redan Ridge but I would really like to know what happed to Arthur from his wounding to his transfer to the Wiltshires. I can then use their records to fill in the time up until his death. I just seem to have hit a brick wall at the moment.

Thanks for your very detailed reply. As I said before I am amazed at the speed with which you collated all that information.

Best regards

Peter B

PS Should have said that the 1940 date of death is a definite mistake

[KevinBattle]

No arcane magic, just knowing how and what to look for.

Every new find can produce another snippet, so eventually you can make out the shape of the jigsaw!

Others here make me look amateur, somehow I managed to get ahead on this one!

His Service Numbers may give further information, there are Pals here who can approximate when he enlisted, pre 1914 for his Hampshire service, as he'd never have gone to France that soon, unless a pre War regular.

His Wiltshires service must have been before the British Army 6 figure unique numbering, so I'd guess that his wounding on 1st July wasn't disabling enough for him to be downgraded away from the Front, nor too long to recover as the 6 figure numbers were introduced during 1917.

Obviously his wounding/illness was sufficient serious to require treatment in the UK, rather than remain in France, so that puts in the region of 1 to 6 months....sooner rather than longer, I suspect.

It was certainly less than a year, as this chap was killed in June 1917, the immediate next Service Number..

TREE, ARTHUR. Rank: Serjeant. Service No: 29557. Date of Death: 07/06/1917. Age: 24.

Regiment/Service: Wiltshire Regiment 1st Bn

Panel Reference: Panel 53. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL.

Additional Information: Son of Alfred and Charlotte Tree, of 36, High St., Cosham, Portsmouth.

(same Christian name, I wonder if that's a clue to where your Arthur Green was on 7th June 1917, too)?

MARSH, HERBERT. Rank: Private. Service No: 29564. Date of Death: 07/06/1917.

Regiment/Service: Wiltshire Regiment 1st Bn

Panel Reference: Panel 53. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL.

As to where in the UK he was treated, I haven't a clue, as with so many wounded virtually every hospital or country house was used, even up in the far reaches of Scotland.

You obviously have spent some time researching him, and I'm sure I've missed more than him pulling pints, or looking after the horses.

The Plough seems to have gone, or been renamed.

I also see they had 2 children, 1 of which had died, but the other child isn't living with them, perhaps grandparents?

Is he related to you or what "sparked" your interest in him?

EDIT: Do you know his younger brother, William, enlisted in the RGA as Gunner 170042 and his Service records appear to have survived?

[old sparky]

He's my great uncle and I was raised in Whitchurch although apart from my mothers siblings there was little talk of the older generation. I put this down to the fact that most of Arthur's generation appear to be connected with the licensed trade, perhaps on both sides of the bar, and my mothers generaion were strict Salvationist teetotallers !

Thank you for the numbers lead. I should be able to get to a transfer date from these.

The house that was The Plough is still standing although until now I hadn't been aware of it's history. Around the turn of the century it seems that every second house was a pub but that's another story.

I found William's records quite by accident while searching for Arthur's. He was wounded near Baisieux, a few miles as the crow flies from Redan Ridge. He was discharged as medically unfit and got himself a Silver War Badge.

Thanks so much for your help and encouragement. I'll crack on.

[KevinBattle]

every second house was a pub

... sounds like my kind of village - any houses for sale?

Pleased to have been of some help, even if you had most of it, a burden shared etc.....

Is there anyone else in the family circle who has any more knowledge, mementoes, medals, letters, photos?

What about a local Whitchurch newspaper archives, or Parish and Local History Group records?

Out of curiosity, I assume you know all these (and more) men?

KENT, WILLIAM JOHN Second Lieutenant 12/03/1915 Royal Field Artillery VI. C. 10. VIEILLE-CHAPELLE NEW MILITARY CEMETERY, LACOUTURE

WALTERS, H Private 15769 04/12/1915 26 Royal Irish Fusiliers 5. SALONIKA (LEMBET ROAD) MILITARY CEMETERY

MEDLAND, CHARLIE Lance Corporal 17128 18/08/1916 26 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry Pier and Face 6 B. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

HARRIS, G Private 14377 09/09/1916 26 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry A. 75. SARIGOL MILITARY CEMETERY, KRISTON

GILBERT, GEORGE Private 16639 26/10/1917 21 Devonshire Regiment Panel 38 to 40. TYNE COT MEMORIAL

HUTCHINGS, JOHN HENRY Private 33969 01/01/1918 36 Yorkshire Regiment II. A. 9. MORY ABBEY MILITARY CEMETERY, MORY

JASPER, W Stoker 2nd Class K/39952 06/03/1918 19 Royal Navy SOUTH PETHERWIN (ST. PATERNUS) CHURCHYARD

CARDELL, EDMUND POWNE Major 25/03/1918 25 Royal Field Artillery Panel 7 to 10. POZIERES MEMORIAL

HOCKING, HENRY Serjeant 14428 20/04/1918 25 Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry Plot I. Row B. Grave 16. MORBECQUE BRITISH CEMETERY

BANBURY, SAMUEL Private 28058 18/09/1918 36 Wiltshire Regiment Panel 9. VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL

HICKS, HORACE FRANK Private 13084952 23/07/1943 37 Pioneer Corps I. F. 4. SYRACUSE WAR CEMETERY, SICILY

[old sparky]

Yes indeed . Since posting this thread my brother has sent me Arthur's page from a Memorial book that was produced in Whitchurch. I had done the same last year for the fallen of our parish of South Petherwin and with funding from the Parish Council we delivered a free booklet to every house in the parish. Copies were also placed with both Cornwall and Devon Heritage/Study facilities. I therefore know a bit about Harry Walters, Charlie Medland, George Harris, William Jasper, Henry Hocking and half a dozen others. We are a very small community and many of the men of the parish were TA Home service. I have the booklet on PDF if you are interested (although I cringe somewhat at showing a professional something that was written by an amateur for amateur consumption).

[KevinBattle]

I therefore know a bit about Harry Walters, Charlie Medland, George Harris, William Jasper, Henry Hocking and

Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

You almost got me on the spelling, but the Church uses the old style of Petherwyn, and there's at least one more with that spelling

GUNNER, HAROLD ANSON. Rank: Corporal. Service No: 1126. Date of Death: 07/10/1916. Age: 25.

Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery "A" Bty. 282nd Bde.

Grave Reference: X. Y. 6. Cemetery: GUARDS' CEMETERY, LESBOEUFS.

Additional Information: Son of John Matthias Gunner and Elizabeth Ann Gunner, of South Petherwyn, Launceston, Cornwall. Native of Huntingdon.

MOORE, FREDERICK HERBERT. Rank: Gunner. Service No: 239988. Date of Death: 20/11/1918. Age: 31.

Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery "D" Bty. 110th Bde.

Grave Reference: V. L. 6. Cemetery: NIEDERZWEHREN CEMETERY, KASSEL.

Additional Information: Son of the late Mr. and Mrs. F. J. Moore, of Petherwyn, Elburton; husband of Eugenie Josephine Moore, of "Woodbine," Elburton, Devon.

Anyway, I'm drifting away from Whitchurch, so I hope you have what you need!

I know that two men have houses named after the village, but there may be a connection for choosing the name of their homes

....and don't be so modest, anything that ensures their memory is kept alive is a good thing. If you want, send me a PM and we can continue without disturbing the good folk on here.

[meadowcroft]

Peter

I'm late to this topic ... reading older posts for the 1st Hants and discovering your similar interest with the 1st Hampshires at Redan Ridge on 01 July 1916.

My great uncle Pte William Owen Edwards of the 1st Hampshires was wounded at Redan Ridge and his Service Record still exists so I can follow his movements back to England. I hope they are of help to you in plotting your man's route home.

Uncle Bill received a gun shot wound to the leg and was admitted to 41 C.C.S. at Agnez-les-Duisans on 02 Jul. From there he was taken and admitted to No. 2 G.H. at Le Havre on 04 Jul. and shipped to England aboard the H.S. Panama on the same day 4 Jul. He had a long convalescence as the records indicate he wasn't transferred to a Labour Corps until 05 May 1917.

You can look at his Service Record online at Ancestry. He was in the 1st Hampshires, 3 Bn, #16186.

Best,

Jayne

[old sparky]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 00:17, meadowcroft said:

Peter

I'm late to this topic ... reading older posts for the 1st Hants and discovering your similar interest with the 1st Hampshires at Redan Ridge on 01 July 1916.

My great uncle Pte William Owen Edwards of the 1st Hampshires was wounded at Redan Ridge and his Service Record still exists so I can follow his movements back to England. I hope they are of help to you in plotting your man's route home.

Uncle Bill received a gun shot wound to the leg and was admitted to 41 C.C.S. at Agnez-les-Duisans on 02 Jul. From there he was taken and admitted to No. 2 G.H. at Le Havre on 04 Jul. and shipped to England aboard the H.S. Panama on the same day 4 Jul. He had a long convalescence as the records indicate he wasn't transferred to a Labour Corps until 05 May 1917.

You can look at his Service Record online at Ancestry. He was in the 1st Hampshires, 3 Bn, #16186.

Best,

Jayne

Jayne,

Thanks so much for this. Very interesting! I'm still having no luck in finding how my 2 relatives were evacuated though. I'll just have to be patient I guess

Peter

[seoul2009]

Hi Peter

Not sure if you will read this after all these years...

I came across your great uncle when I was looking through the "Hospital Admissions and Discharge Book MH 106/436, No. XI CCS – Fourth Army – Doullens 29th June to 13 July 1916; Book No. 1" at the National Archives yesterday.

He is registered as being admitted on 29 June 1916 with shell shock or "shock shell" as it was entered.  He was discharged to No. 4 Ambulance Train on the 29th.  This raises the possibility that he may have not have been involved in the attack on the 1st July.

As Kevin mentioned, his number was entered as 7235 not 5235 as you have it. 

His Pension Record Card states that his NOK was Edith Daisy of Manor Farm Cottage, Whitechurch, Hants.  They had two children: Edith May born 5.11.11 and Berttia (sic) Emily born 18.10.14.

He was an acting Corporal when he died.  He was originally listed as "Presumed Dead".  Interestingly, on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site he has a "Concentration Card" which means his body was identified and recovered at a later date.

Casualty Details | CWGC

I hope you see this and find it useful.

All the best

Brian

[old sparky]

On 04/09/2021 at 10:52, seoul2009 said:

Hi Peter

Not sure if you will read this after all these years...

I came across your great uncle when I was looking through the "Hospital Admissions and Discharge Book MH 106/436, No. XI CCS – Fourth Army – Doullens 29th June to 13 July 1916; Book No. 1" at the National Archives yesterday.

He is registered as being admitted on 29 June 1916 with shell shock or "shock shell" as it was entered.  He was discharged to No. 4 Ambulance Train on the 29th.  This raises the possibility that he may have not have been involved in the attack on the 1st July.

As Kevin mentioned, his number was entered as 7235 not 5235 as you have it. 

His Pension Record Card states that his NOK was Edith Daisy of Manor Farm Cottage, Whitechurch, Hants.  They had two children: Edith May born 5.11.11 and Berttia (sic) Emily born 18.10.14.

He was an acting Corporal when he died.  He was originally listed as "Presumed Dead".  Interestingly, on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site he has a "Concentration Card" which means his body was identified and recovered at a later date.

Casualty Details | CWGC

I hope you see this and find it useful.

All the best

Brian

So sorry not to have acknowledged your very welcome contribution which fits well with other information I have gathered in the aftermath of the centenary activities. I managed to visit his grave and the location of his original burial. Most grateful!

Kind regards

Peter B