Hampshire recruiting question

[Steven Broomfield]

In the frequently inaccurate but always entertaining The British Army, Its History, Customs, Traditions and Uniforms, (undated but probably about 1936-7 period), the author, Pymaster Lieutenant Commander E C Talbot-Booth, RNR, comments, in his section on the Hampshire Regiment, that: "... Hampshire had a higher percentage of its male population fighting than any other English county."

Anyone know the veracity of this?

[Terry_Reeves]

I wonder if he was referring to pub turning out times?

TR

[johnboy]

As a RNR man. and writer of many Naval books, I wonder what his sources were for for the army?

[keithmroberts]

I find it surprising to say the least unless he was referring to all armed services. I am involved in a study of a compact neighbourhood in Portsmouth, and the ratio of naval to army service is greater than two to one. While I appreciate that the city is unusual, Hampshire had Portsmouth's hinterland, and of course the nearby port of Southampton with a maritime tradition to tilt the balance against army service. it would be interesting to know his source.

keith

[Gareth Davies]

And it had Bournemouth back then.

[Guest]

In the frequently inaccurate but always entertaining The British Army, Its History, Customs, Traditions and Uniforms, (undated but probably about 1936-7 period), the author, Pymaster Lieutenant Commander E C Talbot-Booth, RNR, comments, in his section on the Hampshire Regiment, that: "... Hampshire had a higher percentage of its male population fighting than any other English county."

Anyone know the veracity of this?

Pymaster? A friend of Mary Berry by any chance?

[Guest]

In the frequently inaccurate but always entertaining The British Army, Its History, Customs, Traditions and Uniforms, (undated but probably about 1936-7 period), the author, Pymaster Lieutenant Commander E C Talbot-Booth, RNR, comments, in his section on the Hampshire Regiment, that: "... Hampshire had a higher percentage of its male population fighting than any other English county."

Anyone know the veracity of this?

His observations are undoubtedly based on Census data. Hampshire had the largest concentration of military establishments (and still does), and the Census data reflected this. I know you know the units but for the record; KRRC, RB, Hants Regt, Southern Command (huge concentrations of troops), Salisbury, Tidworth, Warminster and of course the RN (rum, sodomy and the lash) etc ad nauseam.

One unfortunate spin-off from this was the rather unfortunate claim by the historian of the 10th (Irish) Div that the 10th Bn Hampshire Regiment (pulled in to fill a gap in its orbat) was full of Irishmen (The Census data 1851-1911 showed a highly disproportionate per cent of Irishmen in Hampshire). However, during the whole of the Great War precisely one man in the 10th Bn Hampshire Regt was recorded as being of Irish birth.

[keithmroberts]

Thanks martin - that makes sense - Like many I had been ignoring the concentration of military establishments and thinking domestic residence.

Keith

[Phil Wood]

His observations are undoubtedly based on Census data. Hampshire had the largest concentration of military establishments (and still does), and the Census data reflected this. I know you know the units but for the record; KRRC, RB, Hants Regt, Southern Command (huge concentrations of troops), Salisbury, Tidworth, Warminster and of course the RN (rum, sodomy and the lash) etc ad nauseam.

Salisbury, Tidworth, and Warminster are all in Wiltshire - Aldershot, Winchester and Portsmouth would be better examples.

[Guest]

Salisbury, Tidworth, and Warminster are all in Wiltshire - Aldershot, Winchester and Portsmouth would be better examples.

Of course my mistake. No idea what I was thinking....although Tidworth was in Hampshire before the borders changed in 1922 I believe....but your point is absolutely right. My mistake. Regardless, Hampshire had a disproportionate per cent of the population in the Armed Forces and is possibly the reason why the author thought that men from Hampshire were more inclined to enlist.

In the 1901 Census 10.5% of the male population residing in Hampshire was employed in the 'Defence of the Country' In neighbouring Sussex the proportion was 1.6% and in Wiltshire it was 1.0%.. The figure for Kent was 7.8%.. Devonshire 5.6%...Dorsetshire 6.3%...These ratios hardly changed in the preceding 50 years primarily due to the large Naval bases and the troops required to garrison Palmerston's follies along the coast. Hampshire of course having the additional factor of the large inland garrisons.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm not sure Palmerston's Follies were garrisoned to any large extent. Others will know more, but I thought most of the artillery was manned by Volunteers with, presumably, a "care & maintenance" strength there on a permanent basis. I may well be wrong, and in wartime that might change. Looking in my Extensive Library, it seems a garrison of 200 volunteer artillerymen and regular officers was the norm. Nelson was disarmed in 1907.

[Guest]

I'm not sure Palmerston's Follies were garrisoned to any large extent. Others will know more, but I thought most of the artillery was manned by Volunteers with, presumably, a "care & maintenance" strength there on a permanent basis. I may well be wrong, and in wartime that might change. Looking in my Extensive Library, it seems a garrison of 200 volunteer artillerymen and regular officers was the norm. Nelson was disarmed in 1907.

I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) the author was relating to history, i.e over a long period of time. The ports all had regular garrisons co-located (although not necessarily in the follies) right up to the Great War.

On the eve of the war the Infantry had 81 Battalions in the UK. Of these 61 were in England and 26 were in Hampshire...so nearly a third of all UK based regular infantry were based in Hampshire. (I am including Tidworth pre boundary changes). Each county would of course have its own County Regiment Depot, but Hampshires was larger due of course to the KRRC and RB Depots (both double size supporting 4 battalions each rather than the normal 2). Here are the regular battalion numbers;

Aldershot.........14

Bordon..............4

Portsmouth........2

Isle of Wight.......1

Gosport.............1

Tidworth............4 (built from 1901)

Six of the 19 Cavalry regiments in the UK were based in Hampshire (31%). It is a fair bet that the accompanying Royal Field Artillery and support arms were in Hampshire in similar proportions. Add Garrison Artillery and a proportion of the Royal Marines etc.

The Census numbers certainly show between 1861 and 1901 that Hampshire had by far the largest number of Naval and Military personnel of any county (and the largest per cent). In 1901 Census for Hampshire recorded a male population of 389,118 including 40,966 naval and military personnel. At 10.5% of the male population it is a sizeable number.

RN & RM......15,200

Military.........25,766....(Edit: equivalent to 16.8% of the regular Home Army in 1901)

The next nearest county had less than half the number of naval and Military personnel.

Just one possible explanation for Talbot-Booth's comments. Did he by any chance expand on the period he was discussing? I can't see how any County could have significantly higher figures during periods of Conscription. If memory serves there is data on recruitment by county v population for the Great War...so presumably he was referring to a period prior to the Great War....

MG

[Steven Broomfield]

Nothing more beyond my quote in post 1.

[Guest]

Some supporting evidence for Talbot-Booth's claim... The 37th Recruiting District (Winchester) recorded the second highest numbers of any regimental district.

General Annual Repors for the British Army 1902:

[Guest]

And a decade later...still shooting the lights out on the recruiting front....GARBA 1911

[Alan24]

This newspaper article was published on 29th Aug 1914 and is referring to a recruitment rally held in Winchester on the 25th Aug 1914.

It seems to contain the caveat "for its size".

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks, Alan. Interesting.

 

I wonder if the 'military tradition' to which Martin refers indirectly had an effect? Seeing lots of smart soldiers (and the girls hanging on their arms!) may well have been an incentive to impressionable young chaps

[Moonraker]

10 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

This newspaper article was published on 29th Aug 1914 and is referring to a recruitment rally held in Winchester on the 25th Aug 1914.

It seems to contain the caveat "for its size".

 

Regards

 

Alan.

It seems a reasonable qualification and one that complements the claim referred to by Steven in his opening post: "Hampshire had a higher percentage of its male population fighting than any other English county.

 

(When I used to issue Government press releases giving work accident statistics for a number of Southern counties and towns, I used to include in the "Notes to Editors" a reminder that they were not league tables and that individual counties had different sizes of population. This didn't stop some local papers announcing, say, that Blankshire had the largest number of work fatalities in the South; true enough, but it also had the largest working population.)

 

Moonraker

[Steven Broomfield]

A good example of that is the recent survey of MPs claiming they were threatened, abused, etc during the recent Election. Something like 87% had been, but then the survey had only 113 or so responses - about one sixth of the whole MP Community.

 

As the iron Duke may or may not have said: "Lies, damned lies and Twitter"