nellys Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Thomas Smith enlisted in March 1915 at S-O-T, (gleaned from local newspaper) ?accuracy but how long before he arrived on foreign soil. Was Guards training the same as everyone else? Trying to find out what he may have been involved in, and when. Was he there in time for Loos? Nel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Hello Nel On a previous thread http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...=0entry181244 you highlighted the fact that your great uncles MIC showed him receiving the BWM and VM. This means that he did not enter a theatre of war i.e. France until after 31st December 1915, he would therefore not have been at Loos in September 1915. Standards of training varied from regiment to regiment. Even when a soldier was fully trained it did not mean that he would be shipped straight to the front, it just depended when the front line battalion required re-inforcement. This link to the mothersite should help you. http://www.1914-1918.net/menu_life.htm Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 20 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Seems like he wasn't there for very long, though it must have seemed longer for him. From this info, he was shipped abroad between January and March '16 as he was wounded in March, this may account for his transfer do a differnt regiment? (GG Can't find his service record) He probably fought during the Somme and was wounded in November and died of his wounds. Buried at Grove Town cemetry, so must have gone to Gove Town casualty clearing station and died there. Does this make sense, ???Nel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hello Nel What does CWGC say as being Thomas' regiment? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 CWGC says Lance corporal Grenadier Guards, although local newspaper say's corporal. If it's on his memorial as GG, wouldn't that mean he was always GG? Nel Ps It's 88 years tommorow since his passing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hello Nell I have checked CWGC and found Thomas' entry and it does state that he was in the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards (Kings company no less) at the time of his death. Do you have any reason to doubt this info? There has been a recent thread concerning the Prince of Wales and the GG that you may find interesting. http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18130 Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Andy I have no reason to doubt that he was in the Grenadier Guards, it's on the CWWG site, the info in the paper also says he was GG, the only reason I wondered about him being transferred is because The Regiment says all his records are missing and they suggested a transfer. Someone posted and said he applied to the Archivist and was told about 5% of Guards service records aren't available.. missing. I guess I'm one of the 5%. Forgive my ignorance, what does Kings Company mean? I haven't researched this yet, Nel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Just read your link..... wow! Does this mean if I follow where the POW served, saw action etc, I will have more idea of Thomas' movements??? Nel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Just read your link..... wow! Does this mean if I follow where the POW served, saw action etc, I will have more idea of Thomas' movements??? Nel Hello Nel Unfortunately not. The PoW was transferred to the reserve battalion when the 1st went abroad. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Woods Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Nel If you want to get an idea of Guards training in 1915 then get a copy of "To hell and back with the Guards" by Norman D Cliff. He was also a Grenadier and served from 1915 onwards. King's Company ( now known as Queens for obvious reasons ) were the tallest and arguably the best soldiers in a Guards Battalion and as such carried out duties at state visits, carrying the monarchs coffin etc. I attached a picture of the POW marching behind King's Company 1bn Grenadier Guards in August 1914 to a recent thread in Soldiers about the POW sniping at the enemy. The picture clearly shows the height of the men and the POW appears to be a little boy following them. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Woods Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Nel I forget to mention this in my reply above. Do you want me to look at the official history and let you know where the 1st Bn Grenadiers were and what they were doing during Jan, Feb and March 1916? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Nell I can tell you that L/Cpl. 23494 SMITH would probably have enlisted sometime between 20-25 March 1915 although I see that you already have this information from the local newspaper. Hope this helps. Kind rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Nell You might also be interested in this thread which pertains to Grove Town Cemetery and the movements of the 1st Bn. from the end of Nov. 1916. Grove Town Cemetery Rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 To Dave and Ed, It would be great to known where 1st battalion were in Jan, Feb and March of 1916. On looking at the info I have amassed so far he was wounded on March the 15th. And also I have a lot of his personal history, as I found him researching my Dad's family, I also have a photo of him which corresponds with the one in the Weekly Sentinel re his death. I know he was in the vicinity of the Somme and died 21st Nov. 1916, around Meaulte, but any more info appreciated, I am managing to piece it together despite lack of service record. Ed, are you still compiling your database, did mean to try and contact you but will take this oppertunity to ask, Thanks so much Nel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hello Nel I have just found this picture in an old book of mine. It shows King George V (front row centre) with soldiers of the Kings Company, 1st GG on the terrace at Windsor Castle. It doesn't state when it was taken. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Woods Posted 22 November , 2004 Share Posted 22 November , 2004 Andy Judging by the medals ( the officers in front seem to have a few WW1 stars ) it's certainly post 1918 and pre 1945. I'm assuming that as so few Guardsmen have medals this is likely to be quite a few years after the end of WW1 - my guess is that it's late 20's early 30's. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Woods Posted 22 November , 2004 Share Posted 22 November , 2004 Nel Hope this is of some help. It may be worth getting the Bn diaries from the National Archives. 1st Bn have records under WO95/1233 and WO95/1657. I have seen 95/1657 and these are circa 1914 so your best bed is 95/1233. In January 1916 the 1st Bn were in reserve at La Gorgue where it had retired to “after a strenuous time in the trenches”. So your man would have arrived as part of the latest draft of reinforcements. At this time King’s Company was commanded by Captain W S Pilcher, with Lt LG Fisher-Rowe and 2nd Lt R FW Echlin as the officers ( Pilcher was wounded with the 1st battalion at Ypres in 1914 ). 12 January the Bn moved to Laventie and from there went into the trenches at Picantin wher it alternated duty with the 4th Bn and 2 Bn Irish Guards every 2 days. On 16th Feb the whole Division was sent to the coast “to get some sea air” and here it was joined by two new recruits: Captain Lord Claud Hamilton ( who was the machine gun officer for the 1st Bn in 1914 ) and Lt HRH the Prince of Wales. (There is a collection of scores of Claud Lord Hamilton’s war snaps in the Grenadiers archives at Wellington barracks, London, and I have been lucky enough to attend and see them. Judging by the photos he and the POW were quite pally. He has photos of the 2 of them together along with some great photos he managed to take from the air!) 26th Feb entrained at Calais and travelled to Kiekenput near Wormhoudt in Belgium. Lord Hamilton and the POW did not travel with the Bn but instead went on leave to England. 5th March – the weather was very bad with fog, snow and freezing temperatures – the bn marched to Poperinghe ( nr Ypres ) where they slept under canvas. On 10th March Captain Viscount Lascelles was wounded by a bomb whilst instructing his company but as it was not serious he rejoined his men a few days later. On 16th March the Bn arrived at Ypres where they went into the front line trenches I.12.a to I.12.c ( no doubt one of the forum members can give the exact position and name ). King’s company were one of the two Grenadier companies in the front line and both were very heavily shelled with 6 killed and 14 wounded, mostly in the King’s Company - This almost falls in with your wounded date of 15th March. It is possible that he was part of a working party or advance part on the 15th and was wounded in another incident away from the Bn. 24th March the Bn went back to Ypres and then to Poperinghe for a couple of days rest from front line duties. 26th March they went back to the trenches somewhere east of Potidje and had their train shelled as they were being taken to their new position – luckily no-one was injured. The official history states with typical Grenadier understatement “ The enemy shelled the railway station, which was unpleasant for those who were starting on their journey, and also delayed the train.” Thats all I've got for January - March and that's from the official history. At least you can say that he served with the POW! All the best with your research. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 22 November , 2004 Share Posted 22 November , 2004 I have just found this picture in an old book of mine. It shows King George V (front row centre) with soldiers of the Kings Company, 1st GG on the terrace at Windsor Castle. It doesn't state when it was taken. I would think this photograph was taken 1935-36. A number of the men appear to be wearing what looks like a Jubilee Medal (1935) (which is also distinctly smaller in diameter compared to, say, the RVM). We also know that George V died in 1936 so it can't be any later than that! Rgds Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 25 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2006 Nel Hope this is of some help. It may be worth getting the Bn diaries from the National Archives. 1st Bn have records under WO95/1233 and WO95/1657. I have seen 95/1657 and these are circa 1914 so your best bed is 95/1233. In January 1916 the 1st Bn were in reserve at La Gorgue where it had retired to “after a strenuous time in the trenches”. So your man would have arrived as part of the latest draft of reinforcements. At this time King’s Company was commanded by Captain W S Pilcher, with Lt LG Fisher-Rowe and 2nd Lt R FW Echlin as the officers ( Pilcher was wounded with the 1st battalion at Ypres in 1914 ). 12 January the Bn moved to Laventie and from there went into the trenches at Picantin wher it alternated duty with the 4th Bn and 2 Bn Irish Guards every 2 days. On 16th Feb the whole Division was sent to the coast “to get some sea air” and here it was joined by two new recruits: Captain Lord Claud Hamilton ( who was the machine gun officer for the 1st Bn in 1914 ) and Lt HRH the Prince of Wales. (There is a collection of scores of Claud Lord Hamilton’s war snaps in the Grenadiers archives at Wellington barracks, London, and I have been lucky enough to attend and see them. Judging by the photos he and the POW were quite pally. He has photos of the 2 of them together along with some great photos he managed to take from the air!) 26th Feb entrained at Calais and travelled to Kiekenput near Wormhoudt in Belgium. Lord Hamilton and the POW did not travel with the Bn but instead went on leave to England. 5th March – the weather was very bad with fog, snow and freezing temperatures – the bn marched to Poperinghe ( nr Ypres ) where they slept under canvas. On 10th March Captain Viscount Lascelles was wounded by a bomb whilst instructing his company but as it was not serious he rejoined his men a few days later. On 16th March the Bn arrived at Ypres where they went into the front line trenches I.12.a to I.12.c ( no doubt one of the forum members can give the exact position and name ). King’s company were one of the two Grenadier companies in the front line and both were very heavily shelled with 6 killed and 14 wounded, mostly in the King’s Company - This almost falls in with your wounded date of 15th March. It is possible that he was part of a working party or advance part on the 15th and was wounded in another incident away from the Bn. 24th March the Bn went back to Ypres and then to Poperinghe for a couple of days rest from front line duties. 26th March they went back to the trenches somewhere east of Potidje and had their train shelled as they were being taken to their new position – luckily no-one was injured. The official history states with typical Grenadier understatement “ The enemy shelled the railway station, which was unpleasant for those who were starting on their journey, and also delayed the train.” Thats all I've got for January - March and that's from the official history. At least you can say that he served with the POW! All the best with your research. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 26 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2006 Thomas attested on 13/3/06, at Stoke on Trent. Joined at White City on 25/3/1915. He was 19yrs and 7m. He was in England, after enlisting for 4th Bt GG until 29/4/16 a total of 1yr and 48days. He left for France embarking from Southampton on 29/4/1916 and transferred to 1st Bt on the 30/4/16. He joined the bt at the front on 12/5/16. I never thought his training would have been so long? Any reasons for this? He was a chemical worker at a colliery before enlisting, could this be relevant. He served in France and Flanders for 206 days, appointed to lance Corporal on 24/9/1916 and died of wounds received in the field on 21/11/16. Service records seem to have raised more questions, but so very grateful I now have them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Felstead Posted 27 November , 2006 Share Posted 27 November , 2006 Thomas attested on 13/3/06, at Stoke on Trent. Joined at White City on 25/3/1915. He was 19yrs and 7m. He was in England, after enlisting for 4th Bt GG until 29/4/16 a total of 1yr and 48days. He left for France embarking from Southampton on 29/4/1916 and transferred to 1st Bt on the 30/4/16. He joined the bt at the front on 12/5/16. I never thought his training would have been so long? Any reasons for this? He was a chemical worker at a colliery before enlisting, could this be relevant. He served in France and Flanders for 206 days, appointed to lance Corporal on 24/9/1916 and died of wounds received in the field on 21/11/16. Service records seem to have raised more questions, but so very grateful I now have them My great uncle Frank Maker enlisted in 4 GG on 19 Oct 1914 number 19947. He arrived in France on 15 Aug 1915 when the battalion was posted overseas and became part of the newly forming Guards Division. Six weeks later on 27 Sep he was killed in action during the attack on Hill 70 at Loos. A summary of his Army service might be:- Training and Home service 300 days Overseas service 44 days (he was probably killed on the first day he saw any actual fighting) 19899 Jack Boucher had enlisted on the same day as Frank and they became great pals. In March 1915 Jack was posted to 3rd Bn and went overseas with them arriving in France on 26 July 1915, so his training and home service was a little shorter but still 280 days. Jack's army career was longer than Frank's. He survived Loos but was wounded accidentally in March 1916 and sent home to recover. Six months later he was back in France but now with the 4th Bn. Only a few days later he was wounded at Lesboeufs and returned to the UK. Almost a year later, in Sep 1917 he arrived in France for the third time, this time posted to the 2nd Bn. On 28 March 1918 he was shot in the face and badly wounded. Yet again he returned to England but sadly this time he did recover and he died of his wounds on 13 Apr 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Felstead Posted 27 November , 2006 Share Posted 27 November , 2006 19899 Gdsmn J.Boucher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Felstead Posted 27 November , 2006 Share Posted 27 November , 2006 19947 Gdsmn F.W.Maker 4th Bn Grenadier Guards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellys Posted 27 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2006 Martin your reply would seem to indicate that longer periods of training were not too unusual, Thomas' was 413 days. Thanks for reply and photo's. Here's my GG Uncle Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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