Kut Cruelty - William Fratel

[BJKBJK]

Hello, 

I believe that William Fratel may have been my great uncle and that my grandfather Archibald Maurice was his younger half-brother. Archie also attended Grant College in 1920. He also served in the army but I cannot locate any records for him. I think Eugene was the other half-brother. Their father was Theodore Fratel who was an engine driver. I also have a service medal for Waziristan 1919-1921. Any advice on how I might progress would be appreciated. 

Regards, Jane 

Edited 11 October , 2020 by BJKBJK

[MaureenE]

If your grandfather was a doctor in the Indian Army, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecary (the early name for an  Assistant Surgeon) for suggested records

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Apothecary

 

Unless your grandfather later served in the 2nd World War, you would be looking for items in the Indian Army Lists , some of which are available online.

 

Also see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Indian Army

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army

 

Cheers

Maureen

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum, Jane.

 

I see Archibald Maurice was born jan 1900 so too late for WW1 service? But maybe his Waziristan medal. What does it say on the rim of the medal please?

 

Charlie

[BJKBJK]

Hi Charlie, there's seems to be a wealth fo experience here. 

 

Thank you for that tip, I hadn't looked at the rim. It is inscribed A.M. Fratel then a number that looks like 190. Given he was at Grant College in 1920 as he won a prize medal there dated 1920, this must have been his first posting. He did serve in WW2 as I have a photo of him in very unflattering army shorts on a parade ground. Again, we have no idea where he served but I am still looking. 

 

 

Edited 11 October , 2020 by BJKBJK
extra information

[ddycher]

This one been a long time interest for me. Kept coming back to it in ref's from Devons and Dorset men captured at Kut. Never could get comfortable with my own conclusions.

 The man himself shown below :

 

 

I always found the image at odds with the mental image reports generated.

 

Tried numerous times to find out more about the German doctor "Comus" who was Fratel's report at Bagtsche without success. All round a hard research moment if you want to cut through the emotion and scapegoating. 

 

Regards

Dave

[BJKBJK]

Hi Dave, thank you so much for the image. Which one is he? I must say I am surprised at this discovery as my grandfather was a very dedicated and ethical doctor all his life. I must find out more about the conditions William found himself in. 
 

Great online community. 
 

Cheers, Jane 

[ddycher]

On the right Jane.

 

Regards

Dave

[charlie962]

jane,

There are other newspaper photos of William Fratel plus the odd sketch since his trial produced a huge amount of publicity. If you wish I can point you to them.

 

if A M Fratel did not serve in WW1 (which seems probable) then it is outside the scope of this forum unfortunately. But were not other brothers serving WW1 ?

 

Charlie

 

edit-  eg Perhaps Eugene Fratel who was a 1st Class Assistant Surgeon in the IMS according to a medal index card that says medals were issued in India for him. Ended up Lieut in the Indian Medical Dept and died 1936 Karachi. Son of Theodore and brother of Theodore which seems to fit Ancestry Trees for Archibald Maurice ?

 

which leads me to this interesting Probate file for Eugene that seems to mention brother William but is dated 1936 . I need to follow this up!

I not William is shown as Controller, Bombay, Baroda and Central Indian Railway, Rewari

Courtesy FindmyPast:

Edited 13 October , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

22 hours ago, ddycher said:

I always found the image at odds with the mental image reports generated

I seem to recall one of the accounts ( maybe a diary rather than newspaper) said he (William Fratel) was a biggish man. I will look it up.

 

Yes it would be interesting research to track down Comus. Conus. As head of the Bagtche Hospital he would have been employed by the German railway company Phillip Holzmann, I presume.

 

Charlie

Edited 13 October , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

23 hours ago, BJKBJK said:

I must find out more about the conditions William found himself in. 

jane

I've updated the info I have on Wm Fratel's origins in the previous post at the bottom of the previous page. I think it is clear that his father Theodore remarried in 1898 thus your GF Archibald Maurice was a half-brother (which is what you told us in your first post). Incidentally nothing suggests that another half brother Eugene was other than ethical.

 

There are various trees on Ancestry for these Fratels, some with errors but all incomplete. A project in itself.

 

The court hearings for William were heavily publicised taking place over a number of days in 1919 and reported by many UK newspapers including the Times. Do you have access to archived newspaper reports- eg sub to BNA or Findmypast or access to Times via local library ?

 

Charlie

Edited 13 October , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

While it was still open I had previously created a Community on "Lives of the First World War" specifically to identify the 'witnesses' and 'victims' as reported in The Times coverage of the Court Martial. Although it is not complete (the possibility of input ceased before I could rush through all I wanted) you will find against most  names in that community the extract from the press report that refers to that man.

 

You may wish to look at that ? the link is here

Then click on an individual. If I have uploaded a cutting then it appears under 'media'

 

It is an example of how useful that Lives project could have been if properly managed. But it is now just an accessible archive.

 

charlie

[BJKBJK]

Hi Charlie, 

This is so helpful, thank you. You are correct in noting that many family trees have the potential to create more confusion with lineage. I asked my mother yesterday if she could remember her father's half-brothers' names and she did not hesitate on Bill (William) and Eugene so I am confident in that step. There seem to be two Eugenes on the same generational line (cousins) so there is another complication. All very well to have family traditions but it makes fact checking very tricky with incomplete records. The FIBIS site has also been recommend so I will look at both that and FindmyPast. I am not sure if the National Library has access to digital versions of old papers outside Australia but will check that, too. 

 

Again, thank you for your interest and help. 

 

Jane

[IPT]

On 12/10/2020 at 22:01, ddycher said:

Tried numerous times to find out more about the German doctor "Comus" who was Fratel's report at Bagtsche without success.

Oddly, he was described in the trial as German, Greek, and either German or Greek. Sgt William Ward, OBLI, described him as Armenian.

 

It was said by an officer that he had died last year (1918). Fratel said he had died of pneumonia at Bagtche on 4/1/1918.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, IPT said:

German, Greek, and either German or Greek.

yet another account says the doctor at Airan Camp was Greek. plenty of scope for confusion.

 

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, BJKBJK said:

thank you for your interest

I would be very interested to hear the results of your research if possible.

 

There were too many accounts covering the period when William Fratel was unsupervised by a senior British medical officer to have much possibility of doubt that Fratel behaved badly during that time. Testimony in his favour was for periods before and after.

 

Here is another account by a Battery Sergeant Major who was not at the Trial but recalled this:

 

Recounted by BSM Winchester of the Volunteer Artillery Battery
(at Bagtche c July 1916)
  We were a sick and sorry crowd, waiting on the siding for a truck to take us back to Airan. Most of us were too weak to stand. I asked Fratel, the Assistant Surgeon, if he could give the lads and myself some quinine to take and, if possible, some to take back with us but he laughed and made a nasty gesture. I was his equal in rank and told him that there would be sufficient returned to England to see that such as him got his reward. I really thought he was going to strike me and he was such a big, hefty brute that if he had I should never have lived to have written this.

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

Thinking again on this trial, I realise that much of my understanding of Fratel's behaviour is based on press reporting of a court case. Inevitably selective. Having re-read the press reporting which clearly emphasises the sufferings whilst seemingly being very brief on the defence I wonder whether the detailed court transcription throws a different light on the matter ?

 

I have no doubt that during the unsupervised period, June-August 1916 at Bagtche, William Fratel did not shine (I would use harsher wording) , unlike some other Senior NCOs who excelled. But I agree it was an exceptional situation and not a responsibility that he sought. Once back under direct control of a Medical Officer he behaved correctly and this was taken into account in the reduction of his sentence. Another factor that will have led to that reduction is the unwillingness post-war to pursue any of the Turkish guards and officers who should have been charged with crimes. Captain Keeling collected a considerable amount of evidence that was seemingly shelved (where ?  There is another thread on this).

 

Charlie

[IPT]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Another factor that will have led to that reduction is the unwillingness post-war to pursue any of the Turkish guards and officers who should have been charged with crimes

 

I expect that the collapse of the Ottoman empire must have complicated matters enormously? 

[IPT]

Some photos from various newspapers

 

Fratel and guard

 

 

Fratel and guard, and Fratel under guard in the dock.

 

 

Private Arthur Mumford (right), an orderly under Fratel

 

 

Corporal Shoeing Smith A. Taylor, 6th Ammunition Column, RFA

 

 

Three Indian witnesses arrive from India to give evidence

 

 

Captain Eastwood, the prosecutor with defence counsel, Mr Watkins (right)

 

 

Scene inside the court. Fratel bottom left,

 

 

Fratel leaves under guard

 

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, IPT said:

collapse of the Ottoman empire must have complicated matters enormously

indeed !

 

Great selection of photos, some of which I've not seen before. Thanks for posting.

 

Charlie

[ddycher]

Great pictures. Thanks

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, IPT said:

defence counsel, Mr Watkins (right)

Elkin ?

[IPT]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Elkin ?

 

Quite right.

 

 

 

[BJKBJK]

Good morning to everyone. These images demonstrate the attention this case received. Charlie, I agree that the actions reported are very concerning and one would hope you do not need a senior officer to act humanely. Even if supplies were short and decisions were tough, there is a way to manage the emotional and physical care of those who look to you for help. This was hardly a Weary Dunlop performance.  Did you have a family member who was affected by Williams’s behaviour? I have long been fascinated by why some people find that inner strength in moments of great distress to act selflessly while others don’t. What makes that difference and how do we know if we have that in in us? How do you live with the knowledge that you fell so short?
My thanks again for all this information. As awful as this reads, it is important to know family histories and to face both the glory moments and those less edifying. 

[Isabel Sheridan]

On 13/10/2020 at 22:38, BJKBJK said:

Hi Charlie, 

This is so helpful, thank you. You are correct in noting that many family trees have the potential to create more confusion with lineage. I asked my mother yesterday if she could remember her father's half-brothers' names and she did not hesitate on Bill (William) and Eugene so I am confident in that step. There seem to be two Eugenes on the same generational line (cousins) so there is another complication. All very well to have family traditions but it makes fact checking very tricky with incomplete records. The FIBIS site has also been recommend so I will look at both that and FindmyPast. I am not sure if the National Library has access to digital versions of old papers outside Australia but will check that, too. 

 

Again, thank you for your interest and help. 

 

Jane

I think we might be related. My great grandfather was a Frederick Fratel, who had a brother, Archie. Their father, Thedore Fratel, appears to have married twice, the second time to an Emma Neroy, who, judging from the photo I have, is much younger than Theodore.  I believe Frederick and Archie are from the first marriage, but unfortunately I do not have any details of this except that Frederick, allegedly, was born in France. The family story (told by my grandmother, Lena Smythe, nee Fratel) about the court martial is very different to what is cited here and is another reason for my interest in it. Isabel Sheridan

[charlie962]

4 minutes ago, Isabel Sheridan said:

The family story (told by my grandmother, Lena Smythe, nee Fratel) about the court martial is very different to what is cited here and is another reason for my interest in it.

welcome Isabel,

I would be fascinated to hear this. There are ALWAYS at least two faces to a story. Having reminded myself that the Turkish Camp Commandants and higher Officials got of scot-free at the end of the war despite an extensive dossier of evidence against them and reccommendations for war-crimes trial, it is clear that in part Fratel was an easier target and thus sacrificed. It does not excuse the 'lapse' for that 3 month period when he was in charge but does give some perspective.

 

Charlie