Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you very much gents. I could not even begin to see a shape, but now I see they are !  

 

Regards 

Toby

 

[Muerrisch]

Nice contribution Frogsmile.

Also of interest to me is the absence of the 4 point Proficiency star on the two colour sergeants. I have noticed this many times and it may well be that the addition of the star "above all other badges" would look just too messy.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Nice contribution Frogsmile.

Also of interest to me is the absence of the 4 point Proficiency star on the two colour sergeants. I have noticed this many times and it may well be that the addition of the star "above all other badges" would look just too messy.

 

Yes, that might be the case, but it also occurred to me that such elderly men might never have sat the examination, which was established to answer regular army criticism that volunteer unit SNCOs were often poorly qualified for their role.

Edited 13 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I think that I have the elevant regs so will search and let you know if I find chapter and verse.

[Toby Brayley]

On 9/13/2017 at 08:14, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

 

Brilliant, thank you, some fantastic and unique badges!   Could I use this chap elsewhere please? 

[Toby Brayley]

On 08/09/2017 at 22:54, Drew-1918 said:

3rd Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps, Aldershot, 23rd January, 1906. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing. Always nice to see another style of Brodrick! The fatigue wear, worn by the second chap standing, of the era seems to differ between a style with a Mandarin collar with epaulets to the style being worn here. I have even seen a single breast pocket version. 

 

[Muerrisch]

With regard to the 4 point proficiency star for colour sergeants:

 

I have original VF Regs 1861, 1863, 1878, 1881, 1884, 1891, 1897, and have searched for information therein looking for "proficiency/ proficient" and also "serjeant".

 

1861 no mention

1863 no mention

1878 star to be worn by proficient serjeants  .... above the chevrons and also above any other badge of rank ............. also ...... serjeants must obtain a certificate of proficiency within one year of appointment. There is provision for reversion if standard is not maintained annually.

1881 no change

1891 the certificate is now mandatory BEFORE promotion to serjeant

1897 no change.

 

Thus, any man promoted serjeant after 1878 [at the latest of course] needed to have a certificate.

 

I conclude therefore that the two colour-serjeants in question [and many others like them] should wear the star but do not.

It may well be that there is a presumption that to hold down that rank a man was necessarily proficient. [This is similar logic to corporals and above not being allowed to wear Good Conduct badges of course].

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Brilliant, thank you, some fantastic and unique badges!   Could I use this chap elsewhere please? 

 

I will pm you.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

With regard to the 4 point proficiency star for colour sergeants:

 

I have original VF Regs 1861, 1863, 1878, 1881, 1884, 1891, 1897, and have searched for information therein looking for "proficiency/ proficient" and also "serjeant".

 

1861 no mention

1863 no mention

1878 star to be worn by proficient serjeants  .... above the chevrons and also above any other badge of rank ............. also ...... serjeants must obtain a certificate of proficiency within one year of appointment. There is provision for reversion if standard is not maintained annually.

1881 no change

1891 the certificate is now mandatory BEFORE promotion to serjeant

1897 no change.

 

Thus, any man promoted serjeant after 1878 [at the latest of course] needed to have a certificate.

 

I conclude therefore that the two colour-serjeants in question [and many others like them] should wear the star but do not.

It may well be that there is a presumption that to hold down that rank a man was necessarily proficient. [This is similar logic to corporals and above not being allowed to wear Good Conduct badges of course].

 

Very interesting, Muerrisch, thank you for posting.  I think that the assumption that a colour sergeant, the highest rank that a volunteer could aspire to at that time, is of sufficient competence to view a proficiency badge overkill, is a sound one.

Edited 14 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Colour-Serjeant Bell, above, decided to go the whole hog and [interesting though his totality of badges is] ended up with more on his arm than I did as a Queen's Scout!

There was a high point for wearing multiple "proficiency" badges in general, c. 1890 to 1914, after which the exigencies of war, and then increasing the limitation of the numbers of badges to be worn have brought us to almost bare sleeves apart from rank and a few survivals such as pioneer sergeant.

 

I have a portrait of Corporal Carter, 12th Lancers 1911 with :

best shot of battalion

best shot of company [surely overkill?]

swordsmanship badge

lancer badge.

 

Given that he could, if he prised himself away from shooting or stabbing things, have qualified for the signaller badge, and indeed that, if he had qualified for all of the above as a lance-corporal, he could also be wearing Good Conduct badges, one wonders if he could lift his beer with his left arm.

 

Edited 14 September , 2017 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Colour-Serjeant Bell, above, decided to go the whole hog and [interesting though his totality of badges is] end up with more on his arm than I did as a Queen's Scout!

There was a high point for wearing multiple "proficiency" badges in general, c. 1890 to 1914, after which the exigencies of war, and then increasing the limitation of the numbers of badges to be worn have brought us to almost bare sleeves apart from rank and a few survivals such as pioneer sergeant.

 

I have a portrait of Corporal Carter, 12th Lancers 1911 with :

best shot of battalion

best shot of company [surely overkill?]

swordsmanship badge

lancer badge.

 

Given that he could, if he prised himself away from shooting or stabbing things, have qualified for the signaller badge, and indeed that, if he had qualified for all of the above as a lance-corporal, he could also be wearing Good Conduct badges, one wonders if he could lift his beer with his left arm.

 

 

Those were the days!  During my time in 1 RWF, just one skill at arms or trade badge was permitted, and it was strictly observed.

[Muerrisch]

I have previouslyexpressed my admiration of, and thanks for, this thread and its contributors.

 

I do so again, as I have just read ab initio and feasted on the photographs and the analyses thereof. I wish I had much worth contributing, its not for want of looking!

[Muerrisch]

Another colour-serjeant idiosyncracy

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  Not mine sadly but from the depths of the internet. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Another colour-serjeant idiosyncracy

 

 

 

Very interesting, Muerrisch, the vast majority of regular rifle regiment colour sergeants seemed to use that same configuration within a laurel wreath.

Edited 15 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Very interesting, Muerrisch, the vast majority of regular rifle regiment colour sergeants seemed to use that same configuration within a laurel wreath.

 

The "double bugle" configuration existed at the same time .......... I expect that the VF badges were not vocab items but sourced by the unit or the association, so a lot of scope for individuality [as if the army needed that scope!]

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Very interesting, Muerrisch, the vast majority of regular rifle regiment colour sergeants seemed to use that same configuration within a laurel wreath.

 

I did a bit more digging:

 

From my notes from RACD ledgers NA.

14. 5.1907    
Badges    Wstd embroidered drill frocks [ED KD therefore overseas] : stars qms, wheel, gun,crossed hatchets,crossed trumpets, bugles, horse shoe, spurs, drum, hammer & pincers, bits, crown, grenades, crowns small,crossedbugles, crowns large    

There is evidence that the authorities had tried over a considerable period to standardise bugle or paired bugle badges ...... and failed.

If a unit issued paired bugle badges to its buglers and bugle-major it is highly likely that the CSjts would include the paired bugle in their badge.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I did a bit more digging:

 

From my notes from RACD ledgers NA.

14. 5.1907    
Badges    Wstd embroidered drill frocks [ED KD therefore overseas] : stars qms, wheel, gun,crossed hatchets,crossed trumpets, bugles, horse shoe, spurs, drum, hammer & pincers, bits, crown, grenades, crowns small,crossedbugles, crowns large    

There is evidence that the authorities had tried over a considerable period to standardise bugle or paired bugle badges ...... and failed.

If a unit issued paired bugle badges to its buglers and bugle-major it is highly likely that the CSjts would include the paired bugle in their badge.

 

The thing is that the colour badges were all one piece (on a patch).  The type with a single bugle seemed to have the laurel wreath and the type with two, overlapping bugles didn't.  I have noticed that Rifles Bugle Major's invariably used/use the twin bugles badge.

Edited 15 September , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Still very much a work in progress and a few tweaks needed here and there! (I am not happy with the twists and really want some earlier style chevrons).  I thought it would be nice to see something in colour..it also gives me a chance to show off my pride and joy, the Mk1* MLM, with 8 round magazine.

 

Equipment of a Lance Corporal of the 1st Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment c1903. 75 Round Mills Orndorff Bandolier, 1888 Pattern Valise Equipment, with a single pouch and Universal Forage Cap (aka the Brodrick). On his left is the P1888 Bayonet for his Mk1* .303 Magazined Lee Metford Rifle, although supposedly superseded by the Magazined Lee Enfield, the use of them in the era is still very much widespread.

 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Rather chuffed with this to say the least. 1910, Scout Cyclist of the 8th (TF) Middlesex.  Note his Binocular case, it is interesting to see how the film  interprets the Lemon Yellow Facings on his Tunic. Also this is yet another image of the Efficiency star being worn on the left sleeve, given he is a scout and distance judging would have been important perhaps it is a volunteer/TF method of wearing the distance judging star? 

 

[Muerrisch]

Great.

It is the bicycle wheel badge that is causing me multple organisms!

Virtually unphotographed and usually blurred (the wheel not the organisms)

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photos Toby and I am almost as excited about the Middlesex Territorial and his wheel badge as Muerrisch, not quite to the extent of an organism though!

[Toby Brayley]

I thought you might like!    Enhances rather well.

 

 

Edited 18 September , 2017 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

One of the best pictures of badges in use on full dress that I have seen for some time. A good mix too.  I wonder if he survived.

[GreyC]

Hi,

beautiful!

GreyC