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Toby Brayley

Early Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles and Insignia photos.

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Andrew Upton
3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you chaps.

 

That is super helpful Andrew, a "a light-ish Khaki" conjures up the colour of KD in my head which this almost is . I am hoping to use a reproduction pistol lanyard that is an almost exact match.

 

Going to make up a tunic for these...

 

Sounds fun, look forward to seeing the end result.

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Muerrisch
19 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Indeed, because I am a modern man and live in a modern world, not the world of 100 years ago. The world has changed, how words are defined has changed with it. I believe 99% of the current population would have quite correctly understood what I meant, which as a target rate I am quite happy with, and won't be changing :thumbsup:

 

Most dictionaries [including Oxford] only get round to mentioning "green" or "greenish" in the mixture as a secondary or tertiary desription. Have a look for yourself.

 

If the 1902 SD was supposed to be called khaki it would not have been called drab. Troops donned khaki in hot climates, and SD drab on the Western Front.

 

If when you personally look at SD drab you see a khaki colour, the error is yours, and if 99% of GWF members do the same, they share the error. 

 

If you are correct, we run the risk of not having a word to describe hot climate uniform.

 

I rest my case.

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Grovetown
22 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. I believe the definition offered is modern. I think the 1914-18 definition of khaki would be "dust or sand-coloured" .......... the early khaki was obtained by staining with tea and assorted dyes. The definitions offered on the web are not congruent. For example: 

Khaki (UK /ˈkɑːk/, Canada and US /ˈkæk/) is a color, a light shade of yellow-brown. Khaki is a loanword incorporated fromHindustani (Urdu or Hindi) ख़ाकी/خاکی (meaning "soil-colored") and is originally derived from the Persian: خاک [xɒːk] (Khâk, literally meaning "soil"), which came to English from British India[1] via the British Indian Army.

Khaki has been used by many armies around the world for uniforms, including camouflage. It has been used as a color name in English since 1848 when it was first introduced as a military uniform, and was called both drab and khaki[2]—khaki being a translation of the English drab light-brown color.[3] A khaki uniform is often referred to as khakis.

 

SD in 1914 was officially coloured "drab", not khaki, so I think an appropriate description for the cords might be "pale drab".

 

In any case, thank you, because I had no idea how they related to the jacket colour.

 

A rose by any other name...

 

I've had huge technical, pedantic arguments about this elsewhere.

 

Andrew is correct in that the twisted cords were khaki, meaning dust meaning beige meaning not drab. Meaning of a lighter colour than Service Dress.

 

And, of course, as you rightly say, Service Dress was - from a technical, pedantic perspective - a dull green colour, officially called drab, by and large.

 

However, and unfortunately, in our period service dress drab was very often referred to colloquially as 'khaki'. It's quite annoying as plainly they're not meaning KD, yet and yet... it can/ was used interchangeably.

 

If you insist, I'll conjure (I'm away and disconnected from resource) diary entries that refer to purchasing khaki SD when it's obviously not KD but drab.

 

Sadly, one can't insist that khaki isn't drab in the vernacular of the day. 

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

 

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Grovetown
1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

 

we run the risk of not having a word to describe hot climate uniform.

 

KD or Khaki Drill. It's the only definite nomenclature.

 

Khaki itself, and without the D or Drill specific, is too muddled up elsewhere otherwise.

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Andrew Upton
3 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

A rose by any other name...

 

Sadly, one can't insist that khaki isn't drab in the vernacular of the day. 

 

Thanks GT - it seems silly to me for some to insist on calling something a term that even by the standards of the day was far from normal, and has evolved even further from that in the intervening 100 years. It doesn't matter to me what the colour was officially deemed in the period - to my eyes (as a modern human being) the straps are indeed a light-ish khaki colour, and nothing will change that.

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Andrew Upton
On 2016/08/01 at 06:56, Grovetown said:

 

KD or Khaki Drill. It's the only definite nomenclature.

 

Khaki itself, and without the D or Drill specific, is too muddled up elsewhere otherwise.

 

I know it's one of your own, but I just had to post this one as well :thumbsup::

 

[Broken link removed]

 

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Andrew Upton
3 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

However, and unfortunately, in our period service dress drab was very often referred to colloquially as 'khaki'. It's quite annoying as plainly they're not meaning KD, yet and yet... it can/ was used interchangeably.

 

 

Such as:

 

AB016%20%5B1600x1200%5D%20(2).jpg.opt880

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Muerrisch

I am happy to have placed this subject in the public domain, as I am

 

1. a pedant

 

2. not modern.

 

In future, anyone wondering about the colour of SD and Googling will probably find this thread and have their eyes opened.

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Grovetown
28 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I am happy to have placed this subject in the public domain, as I am

 

1. a pedant

 

2. not modern.

 

In future, anyone wondering about the colour of SD and Googling will probably find this thread and have their eyes opened.

 

Me either.

 

I prefer to refer to SD as drab, and it would be so convenient if the people of the time had limited the use of khaki to Khaki Drill only; but they didn't and used it interchangeably for green too. How very annoying of them!

 

And let's not even start into Tartan (another form of drab-mixture, distinct from serge, and most certainly not the kilt variety) for SD trousers.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

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Muerrisch

Is this the culprit? We know he meant khaki as in KD, becasuse khaki as in drab [yuk] had not been introduced, but the timing is such that a lot of the readership  might make the switch three years later. I omit any discussion of the Boer War antecedents of SD.

 

Scarlet Into Khaki British Army on the Eve of the Boer War

Grierson, Jamers Moncrieff Sir

 

first published 1899

 

 

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Toby Brayley

almost back on topic.

 

Sealed patterns of the detachable shoulder straps this time for the Corps of Military Police (Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police). Courtesy of the Royal Military Police Museum.

 

patt.jpg

 

patt1.jpg

 

 

 

 

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John Mulcahy

Regarding cloth shoulder titles, both the 1902 titles and the 1916 economy program, I thought that the following might be of interest.  This data is from research I have conducted at the N.A. on the topic of the insignia of The Royal Munster Fusiliers.

 

Westlake states that as early as 1885 cloth shoulder titles, called patches in the records, scarlet worsted lettering on cotton khaki drill backgrounds, were sealed for several regiments for the Khaki Drill Frock. (1)  I have no knowledge of these titles but as most no doubt know the use of cloth titles became more universal when Army Order (AO) 10 of 1902 introduced cloth shoulder titles to be worn on the upper part of the sleeve of the recently introduced Service Dress jacket.

 

I see the first cloth title for service dress sealed in the latter half of 1901.   As an example The first cloth title for service dress for the Munsters was SPN 5416/1901, sealed on 24th Sept. 1901; this is described as, “title embroidered worstered, white on cloth scarlet no 3, for jackets & great coats service dress all ranks, first pattern “R.M.F."

 

A change followed on 28th Jan. 1902 when machine embroidered titles were sealed.  The entry in the RACD ledger is given as, “machine embroidered cotton white on cloth scarlet no 3 for jackets & great coats service dress Infantry R.M.F.” For the Munsters the SPN for the machine embroidered version was 5416/1902.  It is noted as replacing SPN 5416/1901, which I assume was a hand embroidered item.  (2)

 

These titles seem short-lived, as ACD/India/1654 dated 18th Apr. 1905 relates, “it was approved to abolish the embroidered titles on the sleeves of the great coats and service dress jackets substituting them for metal as a cost saving measure.  It is now proposed to extend this to tunics and full dress frocks abroad”.   (3). The List of Changes duly notes the obsolescence of the cloth titles in 1909.

 

WW1 - cloth shoulder titles reintroduced.  Just as the Great War brought changes to the manufacture of cap badges, it also brought changes to the manufacture of shoulder titles.   Abbreviated and un-pierced versions of some metal titles were introduced, as was the re-adoption of cloth shoulder titles. (4) This time, unlike the situation with bi-metal (BM) cap badges, cloth titles were introduced to conserve metal. (5)   These cloth titles were introduced in 1915; they were unit designations in white thread on khaki.

 

In the first patterns, the title was held on to the epaulette by two straps (called tapes in official records).  The pattern number for the Munster’s title was 8314/1915.  (5)  A change came in 1916 when the method of attachment was modified from tapes to a “slip-on” sleeve.   As an example the Munster’s revised pattern cloth title was SPN 8937/1916.  It was sealed on 16th June 1916.  The RACD record of changes describes it as, “Titles worsted embroidered SD cloth drab Melton thick, "R.M.F. and Grenade”, the title was 2” deep.

 

The List of Changes, WO 350/vol 16, p11 notes three title sizes for the 1916 series titles , The " no 1"; 2.5 inches deep for titles with 11 to 17 letters and all devices except bugles, the "no. 2"; 2 inches deep for titles with 6-10 letters and with bugles and the "no. 3",  1 .25 inches deep for all straight single line titles.

 

The use of the war time cloth titles was rescinded on 28th April 1919, when the pre-war metal titles were re-authorized (6)

 
I was not aware of the 1917 order to sew them on, thank you very much for this information.

 

John

 

(1)    R.A. Westlake, “Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles” (London, U.K., Fredrick Warne ,1980), 127.

(2)    An example being the R.M.F. titles sealed in U.K., The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue reference W.O. 359, vol. 12. 9, authority ACD Patterns 507, 2101/2536

(3)    U.K., The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue reference W.O. 359 vol. 14, 2.

(4)    ibid vol 16, 123.

(5)    Ibid vol. 16, 11-12.

(6)  ibid vol. 16, 123

 

 

Edited by John Mulcahy
inserted paragraph breaks

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GWF1967

RFA. 

image.png

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Toby Brayley

John, thank you that is some brilliant information there.

 

 

GWF very nice, is that one a "slip on"? I cant quite see.

 

 

 

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GWF1967
2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

 

GWF very nice, is that one a "slip on"? I cant quite see.

 

 

 

Yes, it's a slip on. 

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GWF1967

Ernest Edward Wesley. 

Pte. 203176.   1/4 R. Berks. 

image.png

image.png

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rob carman

2nd Norfolk Regt

mascot.jpg

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Toby Brayley

Brilliant! 

 

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Steven Broomfield
On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 17:56, Andrew Upton said:

Out of interest, what's the collar badge?

(BTW, I just clicked on the link, on my work PC, and although I got the picture, I also had a very sultry-looking blonde, above a heading offering to tell me why Slavic girls make the best girl-friends!)

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FROGSMILE
43 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Out of interest, what's the collar badge?

(BTW, I just clicked on the link, on my work PC, and although I got the picture, I also had a very sultry-looking blonde, above a heading offering to tell me why Slavic girls make the best girl-friends!)

 

Northamptonshire Regiment, I think Steven, and I vaguely recall the horseshoe perhaps having something to do with Rutland.

0abteyet5663485.jpg

540x360.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE

 

4 VB Queen's.

Queens 4th Vol Bn 1.jpg

Queens 4th Vol Bn 2.jpg

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Toby Brayley

That is a stunning image! 

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Steven Broomfield
1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Northamptonshire Regiment, I think Steven, and I vaguely recall the horseshoe perhaps having something to do with Rutland.

 

 

Thanks - came from the old 58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment, presumably. Something tells me that Good Queen Bess's horse threw a shoe in Rutlandshire during one of her many peregrinations round her realm. No doubt some yokel replaced it for her ... his g g g grandson is no doubt an Earl these days.

 

You didn't comment on the Slavic girlfriends ...

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FROGSMILE
41 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

 

You didn't comment on the Slavic girlfriends ...

 

I have a friend who swears that it's true.  He says that British women after a night of passion ask for bus or taxi fare to get home.  Whereas a Slav girl roots about in your fridge and ask what you would like them to cook you for breakfast!

Edited by FROGSMILE

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GWF1967

7th (City of London)Battalion. "Shiney Seventh"

Scan_20150926 (4).png

Scan_20150926 (5).png

Scan_20150926 (19).png

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