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Remembered Today:

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.


Toby Brayley

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31 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Nothing too exciting, but a welcome gift from a friend.  Grenadier Guard with QSA, KSA with crossed flags and crossed rifles. 

 

 

 

Also a pre-1902 tunic with low, rounded front collar and shoulder straps bearing white, woven worsted grenades, rather than the garter straps that replaced them.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Some more colour!

 

A recent acquisition , purchased purely for the best shot of Sgts in a Regiment/Battalion.  "1905 Pattern"  Tunic with Colour Sergeants Insignia (insignia is silver bullion),  sadly the titles and collar badges have been removed. Silver Bullion and the 3 holes for titles obviously point toward a TF  unit. 

 

CS1.JPG.e1da02a8d91ff6d251cd5df5a6f02518.JPG

 

CS2.JPG.acd445d9f92820aee79b4794a2fd9655.JPG

CS4.JPG.2f9c86e48fab185e9b36a37ffd350a1c.JPG

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Better study of the insignia. 

CS3.JPG

CS5.JPG

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Superb images, thank you for posting.

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A little surprising that the Csgt did not display any other of the crossed rifles badges that he may well have been entitled to:

 

at least marksman

may well be best shot of company

may well be SNCO of best shooting company.

 

and if he was the unit musketry instructor, another set over his chevrons.

 

The regulations do not limit him.

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On 09/08/2019 at 18:26, Muerrisch said:

 

 

The regulations do not limit him.

 

I would have welcomed some more badges.  It is nice when a tunic comes attached to the badge! 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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A new arrival, unsent Postcard.  Almost perfection here, it is combining my main interests. Lots to see here including Cloth Shoulder Titles, rare SNCO insignia (still with the Victorian Crown in c1906), a mix of headgear and thrown into the unusual mix is a VERY rare shot of a Military Policeman in the scarlet Brodrick cap with ERVII cap badge! 

RA, MP, Frocks.jpg

RA1234.jpg

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22 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Nice, but go on then, what is the appointment of the star featured?

 

As it’s before 1915 he’s a Battery Sergeant Major instructor in gunnery (BSM IG) if RFA (incl RHA) and a Company Sergeant Major instructor in gunnery (CSM IG) if RGA - generically both are ‘Assistant Instructors in Gunnery’.

 

After 1915 the appointments remained the same, but the badge changed to the relevant WOII badge with plain crossed guns beneath.  As was traditional with the RA, specialist badges were superimposed upon stripes in order to allow the RA gun badge plus any crown above.  Other good examples were farriers, wheelers and armourers.  The pre-1915 gunnery instructors badge was unchanged in its configuration from the 1864 regulations.

 

Footnote:  the white canvas clothing indicates that the unit shown is almost certainly RGA, for whom white clothing was common for drill order.

 

 

D2D2481C-5BE1-457F-9714-878606B289F6.jpeg

46AEB276-7E41-43C3-B170-52FF50638A05.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Yes I agree. Intriguingly, the "cannon" changed to "guns" [modern shape] in 1902. The entire group of SNCOs led by the RQMS appear to be in a time warp if Toby's dating is correct. Are there ANY KC badges around?

 

Those old 1864 illustrations show left arms. Unusual.

Edited by Muerrisch
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10 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Yes I agree. Intriguingly, the "cannon" changed to "guns" [modern shape] in 1902. The entire group of SNCOs led by the RQMS appear to be in a time warp if Toby's dating is correct. Are there ANY KC badges around?

 

Those old 1864 illustrations show left arms. Unusual.

 

RA NCO ranks were in many cases worn on both arms in 1864.

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Great postcard! Really interesting.

The chap sitting far right, with the cloth RFA shoulder titles, what rank is he please?

 

Chris

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7 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Great postcard! Really interesting.

The chap sitting far right, with the cloth RFA shoulder titles, what rank is he please?

 

Chris

 

His cuff badge is difficult to see, but I think he is a Master Gunner (MG) 3rd Class, and so generically a staff sergeant.  Even before 1915, First and Second Class MGs were warrant officers.  MGs were accounting specialists focusing on gunnery equipment and munitions.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I wondered about him. What militates against that rank is that he is sitting well below the position his rank implies .... but then the group is informal.

 

Master gunners ANY class uniform photos are vanishingly scarce, pity he could not have given us a better look.

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5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Nice, but go on then, what is the appointment of the star featured?

 

I was hoping to be educated, and I was. Thank you gents. I had a guess at a form of Gunnery Instructor but didn't know the exact title.  It's certainly an odd photo and very much a time warp. They are the "1905" SD cap, not the covered Brodrick so it is no earlier than that. Note the white frocks with button breast pockets. 

 

It's the only photograph of a MG and BSMIG I have in my collection. Now the number of known photographs of the Military Police in the Brodrick stands at seven, very unusual for an MP to appear in such an informal photograph. 

 

Regards 

Toby 

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It’s a superb PC Toby.  Just to be clear, I’m sure that the instructor is a CSM IG, as the unit is almost certainly RGA.  It’s interesting to see the mixture of badges of rank on the white drill order, some men with the red worsted chevrons (with two patterns of crown visible, one voided and one not), and the rest with bullion ensembles that include gun badges.  On the former type I see that the acting sergeant major (indicating a Volunteer unit and sat adjacent to the QMS) has a gun in red worsted as part of his badge, but the other men with that pattern do not have gun arm badges, as per usual for that type of undress. Looking again I believe that I can see the plain and unadorned gun badge of a Master Gunner 3rd Class on the man seated far right.  Muerrisch makes a good point about seating status, but he is only a staff sergeant and ranks equally with the CSM IG, who also sits on the flank.  It’s the two central men, the QMS and ASM who are top dogs here, both being staff sergeants of the 1st Class, as the VF ASM held no Warrant.  All-in-all it’s an exceedingly rare image and a pleasure to see.

0D8A5C35-779A-4FD4-87FA-2D196578407F.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

His cuff badge is difficult to see, but I think he is a Master Gunner (MG) 3rd Class, and so generically a staff sergeant.  Even before 1915, First and Second Class MGs were warrant officers.  MGs were accounting specialists focusing on gunnery equipment and munitions.

Thank you FROGSMILE.

8 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

A new arrival, unsent Postcard.  

 

And I second FROGSMILE, it is a supurb image, thank you for sharing Toby.

 

Chris

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On 12/08/2019 at 22:44, FROGSMILE said:

 Just to be clear, I’m sure that the instructor is a CSM IG, as the unit is almost certainly RGA.  

 

 

Thank you gents. I would agree they are RGA, as we have seen on this thread they tend to have the more archaic equipment. so CSM IG will be added to the back in pencil. 

 

Thank you once again. 

 

A better view of the MG sat on our right. 

696924197_RAMPFrocks.jpg.c2986023ae9fd5cf56bdd2818eb7f007.jpg

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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The AIG identification is, I believe, correct, but various sources disagree with each other, or sew a little doubt.

 

Regarding the AIG man, when Denis Edwards and I wrote the badge book in 1984 I left the RA area to him, as he was an ex RA warrant officer. Even he struggled with the crossed cannon/guns, grenade, crown and chevrons appointment titles and ranks, and subsequently he issued an amendment in 2005. He believed that there was a change in 1902 but it is not clear what change he meant!

Campbell, in his masterly book on RA dress, has BSM AIGs and CSM AIGs wear ing the badge seen above in the thread from 1864 until 1915....... Campbell is usually correct as far as I can tell.

Dawnay avoids instructors, wisely.

Clothing Regs 1894 describe our man's badges as for a sergeant instructor in gunnery. This appears to disagree with Campbell.

 

Is there an RA expert in the house who can detail the various grades, ranks, titles and badges of AIGs from late Victorian times to modern?

 

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4 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The AIG identification is, I believe, correct, but various sources disagree with each other, or sew a little doubt.

 

Regarding the AIG man, when Denis Edwards and I wrote the badge book in 1984 I left the RA area to him, as he was an ex RA warrant officer. Even he struggled with the crossed cannon/guns, grenade, crown and chevrons appointment titles and ranks, and subsequently he issued an amendment in 2005. He believed that there was a change in 1902 but it is not clear what change he meant!

Campbell, in his masterly book on RA dress, has BSM AIGs and CSM AIGs wear ing the badge seen above in the thread from 1864 until 1915....... Campbell is usually correct as far as I can tell.

Dawnay avoids instructors, wisely.

Clothing Regs 1894 describe our man's badges as for a sergeant instructor in gunnery. This appears to disagree with Campbell.

 

Is there an RA expert in the house who can detail the various grades, ranks, titles and badges of AIGs from late Victorian times to modern?

 

 

Personally I am confident that Campbell is correct with his information, which is based upon scrupulously recorded primary source orders and instructions that he painstakingly added as numbered references on each page of his book, and which follows on relatively seamlessly from an earlier book by McDonald, as well as the 1864 RA regulations and trumpet and bugle calls published by the War Office in 1865.  The generic description of these instructors changed over time as the number of ranks that could be held increased.  Initially called Sergeant Instructor of Gunnery, the title then changed to Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (to reflect the superior commissioned officer IG), until the division into RFA/RHA and RGA (incl Mountain Artillery) whereupon it settled as BSM or CSM IG, as mentioned.  Today they are known as Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (SMIG).  The badges are all described in Campbell’s book.

 

For Toby:  thank you for the improved view of the 3rd Class Master Gunners lower sleeve, whose cloth arm badge of plain gun (on a field - see image) is now clear.

 

 

AC862A05-284B-4108-A510-21049D02C89C.jpeg

E931983D-F33D-4F80-98C8-20F277705A94.jpeg

1709684B-39C6-455F-A952-8D77F10B79AE.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Posctcard sent from Windmill Hill Camp, Andover on August 8th 1906. 

 

Men of the 2 Volunteer Btn, Cheshire Regiment.  A couple of shots of the large musicians badge. A buglers badge is just visible also.  The brass 2 V CHESHIRE titles are also interesting, as the cloth version have featured in this thread, I can't recall seeing any other brass V titles.  

 

1782208786_2VCheshires.jpg.03a34ac1c17bed7300e52e56f1258dce.jpg

31024810_2VCheshires1.jpg.c3ca5f0f1c75ee80ecfc34036af4d31a.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Looks like a mock execution judgement being read out with drummer for good measure and firing squad standing ready!

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It certainly does. Seems quite a popular subject as I have a few cards with similar scenes!

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Superb photo.  A relatively late sighting of a round forage cap on the QMS, too.  Also a rare view of bandsman’s pouches complete with badges (one on floor, other on Band Sergeant), but I can’t quite make out what the latter were.  They seem to be different to that used by regulars. See enclosed.  Perhaps they are large Acorns with leaves?

3A8A7BE5-F45E-497B-8AC4-3AA6613EB4B4.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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