Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Muerrisch]

RHA prize driver very nice to see, thank you. Interesting to see the post 1902 chevron material so clearly used on immaculate KD.

Is the ribbon a commemorative such as coronation perhaps?

[Toby Brayley]

I will try for a better scan with the NF photo, sadly it's a poor quality mass produced card that turns into dots if scanned. 

 

I was most pleased with the driver badge, the quality it stunning. The medal is the 1911 coronation medal or the Delhi Durbar medal,  I suspect the latter. 

[FROGSMILE]

I agree that the Colour Sergeant is the Instructor of Musketry.  A good spot.  He has two Musketry prize badges on his left cuff, as mentioned.

Edited 23 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Been a while but very please with the latest addition. A postcard of the NCOS of the 3rd (Militia) Btn, Gloucester Regiment;  once again the detail is super crisp revealing ( I tried 1200 DPI) the GLOSTER title. 

 

Of further interest is the late use of the Lee Metford Mk1*, 1888 Belts and Victorian era Leggings, the image is at least 1905 as the peaked SD cap is in use (they are not covered brodricks). I suspect it is related to their Militia status. 

Edited 8 May , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

The ‘Militia’ sub-title ceased in 1908, Toby, and the ‘GR’ caption on the photo suggests that they were designated as General Reserve Battalion, although Special Reserve (SR) was more usual, so I’m not sure if that was an error by the photographer’s printer.

Edited 8 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The ‘Militia’ sub-title ceased in 1908, Toby, and the ‘GR’ caption on the photo suggests that they were designated as General Reserve Battalion, although Special Reserve (SR) was more usual, so I’m not sure if that was an error by the photographer’s printer.

Easily explained as I am 100% sure in this case the G R is Gloucestershire Regiment, (NCOs 3rd GR), its pre 1908 as it was sent in August 1907. 

Edited 8 May , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Scalyback]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The ‘Militia’ sub-title ceased in 1908, Toby, and the ‘GR’ caption on the photo suggests that they were designated as General Reserve Battalion, although Special Reserve (SR) was more usual, so I’m not sure if that was an error by the photographer’s printer.

 

One exception. Royal Monmouth Royal Engineers(Militia) are still styled as such. Ironically a SR unit! 

[Muerrisch]

Several marksmen and a best shot in company.

I would go with Militia:

1908 or later [SR] is pushing it a bit with the majority in Brodricks.

If so, good to see Militia wearing the crossed rifles etc.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

 

One exception. Royal Monmouth Royal Engineers(Militia) are still styled as such. Ironically a SR unit! 

 

Yes that’s true.  A small aberration.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Several marksmen and a best shot in company.

I would go with Militia:

1908 or later [SR] is pushing it a bit with the majority in Brodricks.

If so, good to see Militia wearing the crossed rifles etc.

 

Yes, I did wonder about the large number of Brodricks and could only think it might have been the Militia’s low priority for new equipment as the only publicly funded auxiliary force.

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Easily explained as I am 100% sure in this case the G R is Gloucestershire Regiment, (NCOs 3rd GR), its pre 1908 as it was sent in August 1907. 

 

Of course, that’s it Toby.  I hadn’t considered GR = Gloucestershire Regiment and yet it seems obvious now.

[Mike_H]

A course photo from India.  Rough Riders spur badges visible and a couple of crossed gun prize badges. Three men from "L" Battery RHA are included - I don't know if they were still serving with the battery at Nery in 1914.

 

[Toby Brayley]

Lovely stuff, the RA of the era always make KD look so smart. 

[Muerrisch]

An appeal: Warrant Officers and Conductors

I am writing an account; the first paragraph is here:

Warrant Officers of the British Army: an historical perspective.

These notes describe the evolution of army warranted officers’ appointments, pay and insignia from Wellington’s time to the present. The stimulus to write was the oft-repeated statement that Conductors of Supplies and of Stores and their successors were both the first army warrant officers and always the most senior. This is not correct, and “seniority” obscures matters such as precedence, which may be different.

In the context of the army I shall use this definition of warrant: An official certificate of appointment issued to an officer of lower rank than a commissioned officer. …………………………………

And much later in the article, outbreak of the Great War

The next major development was on the eve of the Great War, primarily concerned with the reorganisation of the regular infantry battalions from an eight-company establishment to four “double companies” Army Orders 323 of 1913, 207 and 210 of 1914 refer. The Territorial Force and units in the colonies made the change in a piecemeal manner over the course of the next year. The only warrant officers in the unit were the sergeant-major, the bandmaster, and the schoolmaster if 1^st Class. A new appointment was created, that of company sergeant-major, one for each company, paid an extra 6d per day on top of the colour-sergeant’s pay, with the badge remaining as crown and three chevrons on service dress. From that time, it became necessary for unit sergeant-majors to be retitled as regimental. As an historical note, company sergeant-majors had existed as long ago as 1800 in the Rifle Brigade, also from an early date in the RE and colonial infantry.

The last complete edition of KRs before the war was 1912, republished and amended to August 1914. There were 26 appointments listed for the rank of warrant officer. The official precedence list was:

      i.         Conductor AOC, master gunner 1^st Class, schoolmaster, staff sergeant-major 1^st Class

     ii.         Master gunner 2^nd Class

   iii.         Garrison sergeant-major

    iv.         All others except………….

     v.         Special Reserve warrant officers (in succession to those of the Militia since 1908).

Those in i. And iv. were to rank with one another according to date of promotion or appointment.

 

To continue. I am very well placed for primary sources, having just about every QVRegs, KRegs and QERegs, plus Pay Warrants, Plus General Orders, Army Orders, Army Council Instructions and the like. I also have Dawnay’s marvellous work on the subject.

What I lack is photographs of the very senior and the “trade” Warrant Officers showing their badges in wear.

For example: conductors, sub-conductors, master gunners, bandmasters, schoolmasters. Also of interest are Guards RSMs, GSMs, Academy SMs, and WOs wearing “trade” badges with their ranking: Geneva Cross, Hammer and Pincers ……. You get the idea.

PLEASE IF YOU CAN HELP I WOULD BE MOST GRATEFUL. ANYTHING OFFERED WHICH IS NOT IN THE PERIOD, SAY 1900 TO 1920, HAD BEST BE KEPT OFF THE FORUM.

Where will the article be placed? Because it will span 200 years it does not belong on the GWF, so probably the MHS journal, but also would be offered on this Forum to be sent as an e -mail attachment to interested parties.

[Ypres1915]

Although these are not cards, I thought they may be worth a post here. I am fascinated by the WD mark on the reverse of the rifles patch ...... Any comment on the age of this piece would be welcomed. The "Barber" qualification is an amusing thing,.... It may be a uniquely Canadian patch....  The colt machine gun patch is a rarer Canadian item.

 

Ypres1915

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 May , 2019 by Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

Superb badges, Ypres1915.  Thank you for posting them.  I too had never seen a W^D mark on a badge before.

[Muerrisch]

The crossed muskets are of Victoria's reign of course, and the backing is strongly suggestive of Volunteer Force ....... regular army should be scarlet or dark navy blue, same colour as the full dress tunic [not contrasting, a privilege reserved for Household troops after 1868.]

[Toby Brayley]

Super thank you, interesting to see the 1895 Colt "Potato Digger" MG badge.

[Toby Brayley]

latest addition, 3rd (Militia) Battalion of the Wiltshires. A nice crisp postcard image of the WILTS title. 

 

1907 Postmarked and a fine study of the Mk1 SMLE and P1903 Bayonet. 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent photo Toby, it exemplifies too how young the average private of a Militia Battalion was.  They were generally callow, rural youth personified.  Great to see Le Marchant Barracks too, my own great uncle enlisted there in June 1914.

Edited 15 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[badjez]

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 23:26, Toby Brayley said:

This title measures 6x4cm, the measurements taken from the widest part of the lettering, not the khaki backing.

Sorry for delay.

Stephen 

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 23:26, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

A very Interesting piece Stephen! I have never seen an example before.  If you find any further information please do share with us. Do you have dimensions of the title?  It is obviously post 1908, I also suspect from its construction and style that is is from a fixed style shoulder strap or maybe even a cut up slip on title? 

 

Regards

Toby

 

 

[badjez]

Another recent addition, found in Australia!

Title to 1st Volunteer West Kent Battalion, a bullion Marksman badge, and two Efficiency Stars.

 

1 Volunteer Bn, QORWK Regt became parts of 4 and 5 Bn, TF in 1908.

 

Stephen.

[Toby Brayley]

On 17/05/2019 at 08:11, badjez said:

 

Title to 1st Volunteer West Kent Battalion, 

 

1 Volunteer Bn, QORWK Regt became parts of 4 and 5 Bn, TF in 1908.

 

Stephen.

 

 

Wonderful, thank you for sharing. Given this size, Is that a cut down should strap? Or the style used by the 1st  Vol Btn West Kents?  It is usually the title the surmounts the 1 and V.

 

regards 

Toby

Edited 22 May , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

This mornings arrival. The blue on red Royal Engineers title has graced these pages many times, but I thought this large cabinet card too good not to share. "Royal Engineers depart for South Africa 1902".  It as a nice view of the R.E detachable shoulder boards of the 1st pattern Service Dress. (red edge with blue inner loop). The transitional mix of 1889 bandoliers, the Mills Orndorff cartridge belt is why I am such a fan of this era. 

Edited 22 May , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[elliot#1]

A few senior NCO's of the Norfolk Regiment, showing a mix of cloth and metal shoulder titles in the change over period. 

[FROGSMILE]

Not 100% clear, but this shows a soldier of the 2nd Battalion (Queen’s) Royal West Surrey Regiment.  His title is QUEEN’S in white on scarlet.  Dressed for walking out in the early pattern 1902 Service Dress with removable shoulder straps, he has one good conduct badge (stripe), wears a dark blue Field Service Cap, and Slade Wallace pattern belt, carries a swagger stick as per regulation, and most interestingly wears shoes and trousers (the latter as he would have done with a scarlet frock), rather than boots and puttees.  As the headdress pre-dates the Brodrick cap, and puttees began issue at home (in Britain)  around the same time, the photo must have been taken in 1902.

 

 

Edited 23 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE