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Remembered Today:

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.


Toby Brayley

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I recently acquired a Cabinet Card of a Volunteer Fusilier Sjt at a postcard fair, by pure chance I spotted another picture of him in a card on eBay. It is undoubtedly the same chap, he even has the same stance!

 

The cards were both taken in May 1896 by a Manchester based Photographer, I suspect they are L.F affiliated.

 

They also have 1876 socket bayonets, suggesting they are still using Martini Henry Rifles. There are some nice details in the tents including Volunteer Efficiency stars on the hanging Tunic.

Fusilier 2.jpg

fusiler crossed rifles.jpg

fusiler crossed rifles 1.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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The Norfolk Clad volunteers are SWB , heres the same cup. Ties in with the Dragon button also. 

20190201_150458.jpg

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48581783_1907MIddsx_Reg.campfront.jpg.5bf2b810303bc5d0f4dceb555ec7acd4.jpg

 

Middlesex Regiment, I believe. 

 

Sent by Mr. W. Nash to Fred Papworth on the 14th August 1907. "...had a good time at camp".

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On 01/02/2019 at 09:25, Toby Brayley said:

I recently acquired a Cabinet Card of a Volunteer Fusilier Sjt at a postcard fair, by pure chance I spotted another picture of him in a card on eBay. It is undoubtedly the same chap, he even has the same stance!

 

The cards were both taken in May 1896 by a Manchester based Photographer, I suspect they are L.F affiliated.

 

They also have 1876 socket bayonets, suggesting they are still using Martini Henry Rifles. There are some nice details in the tents including Volunteer Efficiency stars on the hanging Tunic.

 

 

Yes they are Lancashire Fusiliers, who retained the unadulterated ‘universal grenade’ as collar badge (along with RWF).  It’s interesting that they (and NF) utilised glengarry cap grenades as the shoulder belt plate worn by SNCOs of units that were formerly VF.  I’m not sure if all the VBs of Fusilier regiments did the same.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 02/02/2019 at 11:41, Drew-1918 said:

 

 

Middlesex Regiment, I believe. 

 

Sent by Mr. W. Nash to Fred Papworth on the 14th August 1907. "...had a good time at camp".

 

 

Very nice! Thank you for sharing, I do like the odd K.D Frock in the mix, they seem to pop up frequently in pictures at Camp in the UK. It is also interesting to see the mix of collar insignia on the pocketed  Frock. 

On 02/02/2019 at 17:28, FROGSMILE said:

Yes they are Lancashire Fusiliers, who retained the unadulterated ‘universal grenade’ as collar badge (along with RWF).  It’s interesting that they (and NF) utilised glengarry cap grenades as the shoulder belt plate worn by SNCOs of units that were formerly VF.  I’m not sure if all the VBs of Fusilier regiments did the same.

 

Super stuff, thank you. I narrowed it down, with an educated guess, purely by location and lack of Royal Blue facings leaving LF or NF. 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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A very small CDV of a Hampshire Regiment chap on Foreign Service in India. Details of the India scout badge and his F.S Helmet are still nice and clear.

Hampshire FS.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Sgt WT Davis , Queen's Prize winner, Bisley 1893

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting to see what appears to be green facings on Monmouthshire Regiment man, as per VBs of the SWB, although the change over from white was not achieved overnight.

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8 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Very nice! Thank you for sharing, I do like the odd K.D Frock in the mix, they seem to pop up frequently in pictures at Camp in the UK. It is also interesting to see the mix of collar insignia on the pocketed  Frock. 

 

Super stuff, thank you. I narrowed it down, with an educated guess, purely by location and lack of Royal Blue facings leaving LF or NF. 

 

Notice that both sergeants are carrying side arms (socket bayonets) as per the regulations for ‘walking-out’.  Originally this had been decreed for all other ranks, but after an outcry in the early 1890s when a soldier killed a civilian in a street fight, questions in Parliament (which you can read in ‘Hansard’ online) led to a restriction to senior NCOs only.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Notice that both sergeants are carrying side arms (socket bayonets) as per the regulations for ‘walking-out’.  Originally this had been decreed for all other ranks, but after an outcry in the early 1890s when a soldier killed a civilian in a street fight, questions in Parliament (which you can read in ‘Hansard’ online) led to a restriction to senior NCOs only.

I have a little itch that suggests that corporals of Foot Guards were also to walk out with side arms. This would be full corporals, before the days of automatic LSgt appointment. I will have a look at the series of Standing Orders .... something has planted the idea.

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1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

I have a little itch that suggests that corporals of Foot Guards were also to walk out with side arms. This would be full corporals, before the days of automatic LSgt appointment. I will have a look at the series of Standing Orders .... something has planted the idea.

 

Interesting to you and I perhaps, but not of great practical relevance, there were/are always exceptions with the Foot Guards.  I imagine that the Metropolitan Police, who I understand played a leading part in the drive of change, would not have been happy at a less embracing policy in the capital city.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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For completion on the subject of walking out side arms, with special reference to Foot Guards.

 

Standing Orders Brigade of Guards [SOBG] 1902 are mute on the  subject, one assumes that side arms were for all NCOs walking out[

1911 SOBG mute, but notes that all NCOs including LCpls will wear white gloves walking out .The small print severely limits walking out in Service Dress, but who would want to?]

1922 and 1929  SOBG Service Dress. NCOs side arms, Sgts and above to wear sashes.Canes to be carried.

1931 Standing Orders Scots Guards. Side arms order includes LCpls.

1936 SOBG Service Dress. NCOs side arms. Canes to be carried. Sashes only when buff equipment is worn.

Edited by Muerrisch
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2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

For completion on the subject of walking out side arms, with special reference to Foot Guards.

 

Standing Orders Brigade of Guards [SOBG] 1902 are mute on the  subject, one assumes that side arms were for all NCOs walking out[

1911 SOBG mute, but notes that all NCOs including LCpls will wear white gloves walking out .The small print severely limits walking out in Service Dress, but who would want to?]

1929  SOBG Service Dress. NCOs side arms, Sgts and above to wear sashes.Canes to be carried.

1931 Standing Orders Scots Guards. Side arms order includes LCpls.

1936 SOBG Service Dress. NCOs side arms. Canes to be carried. Sashes only when buff equipment is worn.

 

Showing that as so often the Foot Guards were an exception.  

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Of course!

 

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Showing that as so often the Foot Guards were an exception.  

I thought that the orders on sashes, gloves and canes were of interest ....... canes right up to WW II.

 

NB first ref. was to SOBG 1904,not 1902.

Edited by Muerrisch
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TF Buffs, 1909, with a lone cloth S.T and SD with shoulder cords. The brass titles are interesting as the appear to have an entirely separate Btn number above the script.   Note the Victorian leggings and mix of Metfords and Long Lees. 

Buffs TF.jpg

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2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Of course!

 

I thought that the orders on sashes, gloves and canes were of interest ....... canes right up to WW II.

 

NB first ref. was to SOBG 1904,not 1902.

 

I'm not really surprised because they (Household troops and later the King's Troop RHA) were the only ones to have full dress, and undress blues, returned to daily wear out of the entire British Army.  In that sense they continued walking out protocols that died in the rest of the infantry.

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

TF Buffs, 1909, with a lone cloth S.T and SD with shoulder cords. The brass titles are interesting as the appear to have an entirely separate Btn number above the script.   Note the Victorian leggings and mix of Metfords and Long Lees. 

 

 

Great photo of an interim period.  Slade Wallace equipment pouches for drill order too!

Edited by FROGSMILE
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A nice early shot of the Wheelwrights badge on this CDV. 

Wheelright.jpg

Wheelright1.jpg

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Thank you for the wheelwright. 

I think the headdress is a Wolsey, and the frock looks post 1905 - ish so any date afterwards, India or a bit nearer Home......... buff belts clung on for ages of course.

Do readers agree please?

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Hi

I think looks more like the earlier shaped foreign service helmet of the boer war period with the strap worn over the top

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1 hour ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi

I think looks more like the earlier shaped foreign service helmet of the boer war period with the strap worn over the top

 

You may well be correct, I can usually tell one from t'other without error.

In that case earlier rather than later, but the collar suggests not much earlier.

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I think Dave is correct about the helmet.  The KD especially interests me as it’s the second example I’ve seen recently in a photo where a tailor has inserted a whole series of darts along the waistline that nips the jacket in in such a way that when a belt is worn you don’t need a comrade to pull in the excess fabric at the back in order to present a neat front.  If I can find the first one I’ll post it.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 tailor has inserted a whole series of darts along the waistline that nips the jacket in in such a way that when a belt is worn you don’t need a comrade to pull in the excess fabric 

 

Good spot I had not noticed that! I will have to check my other photos now.

 

My latest addition is this rather stunning and complete  Yorkshire Dragoons, Sergeants Full Dress Uniform (even came with his frock) .The plaited aiguillettes are also in the style the 6th DGs and were only worn by Bandsmen and Trumpeters. The 4, white on blue Efficiency Stars on the sleeve are a very nice addition and add a nice bit of colour to this thread.

 

 

1563398771_JAN_9760copy.JPG.5701d709b518c28fe796be4647544baf.JPG

 

1377777832_JAN_9763copy.JPG.74d00d4c61ba736f3a906b8f8c04ec5a.JPG

1051387135_JAN_9764copy.JPG.ea3679fdfc85fc199bc89e8d1524bed4.JPG

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Superb images Toby.  I had never before seen efficiency stars on a Yeomanry garment, thank you for posting.

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26 Company Army Service Corps. Interesting mix of Brass Shoulder Titles and the blue on white ASC cloth title. Saddler, farrier and wheelwright badges also in evidence, as expected given the nature of the ASC.

26coy ASC 2.jpg

26coy ASC.jpg

26coy ASC 1.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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