Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Toby Brayley

Early Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles and Insignia photos.

Recommended Posts

Muerrisch

Caption in error. The scarlet garments are 7-button frocks.

The tunic had white front braid and a few other differences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

8h2.jpg

8h.jpg

I was fortunate enough to purchase this the other day! Stunning image of a member of the 8th Hussars 1904/05 so much going on here kit wise!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grovetown

XI%20red.jpg

Unusual embroidered? titles on this 11th Hussars chap. Never come across any like this before.

I wonder if he's wearing a cut-down embroidered slip on - introduced in June 1916 - and sewn on, as per GRO 2317 of February 1917. See the VIII H example below.

The GRO stated on the shoulder at the top of the arm, yet you often see them on the shoulder strap itself (like on the RFA jacket below).

Cheers,

GT.

Slipongroup-Copy.jpg

RFA1-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton

I wonder if he's wearing a cut-down embroidered slip on - introduced in June 1916 - and sewn on, as per GRO 2317 of February 1917. See the VIII H example below.

The GRO stated on the shoulder at the top of the arm, yet you often see them on the shoulder strap itself (like on the RFA jacket below).

The original instructions in 1916 were to wear them on the epaulettes - the 1917 GRO was the one that changed that to the top of the sleeve. So depending on date either is technically in line with regulations:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88885

To add to what Graham has posted the slip-on worsted shoulder titles were introduced in early 1916 (actual pattern sealing started in late 1915) to replace the brass titles (as far as I can tell all units had pattern sealed examples but not sure all had manufactured examples). These never really were popular at least from them actually replacing the brass titles, however photos of these things in use in France are fairly common.

As introduced they slipped on the shoulder tab. However at least by Feb 1917 the BEF issued a GRO 2137 (13.2.17) which stated that all worsted shoulder titles will in future be worn on the sleeve just below the point of the shoulder. This GRO may have been preceded by an ACI--but I'm not sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grovetown

The original instructions in 1916 were to wear them on the epaulettes - the 1917 GRO was the one that changed that to the top of the sleeve. So depending on date either is technically in line with regulations:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88885

I know - I was referring to them being sewn on rather than slipped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19mac79

A superb article on early titles and straps. Very interesting. Well done chaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drew-1918

I have this one, postmarked 'Sept 15 08', of "A" and "B" Companies 3rd City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) Aldershot. I'm presuming, perhaps wrongly, that the cadets with cloth shoulder titles, are a bunch of 20th Londons they have somehow met in camp. However, I'm not sure that the scroll on the cap badge looks quite right, and I can't quite make out the title. It's just after Volunteers have become the Territorial Force, so perhaps I am missing something.

Chris

post-79295-0-20552600-1463746618_thumb.j

post-79295-0-73221500-1463746796_thumb.j

Edit: I can't help but wonder how many of them went on to fight in the Great War and made it through. I seem to remember seeing another photo on here featuring the tall soldier, at the back towards the centre, together with the cadet over his left shoulder, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drew-1918

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john gregory

Nice photo of 1 V NOTTS AND DERBY with woven epaulettes also showing ordinary epaulettes. JG

post-20062-0-99761800-1463831706_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john gregory

Close up and an original title minus the 1V. jg

post-20062-0-80327900-1463832302_thumb.j

post-20062-0-24874200-1463832565_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

Brilliant photos thank you, some good detail of their cord shoulders straps.

I note they are still equipped with Lee Metfords.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grovetown

With the predecessors of the 20th London being the 2nd and 3rd VBs of the Royal West Kents, is it possible that the slouch hat badges are 'old' RWK ones that were near enough for them at the time of formation? The difference is largely in the scrolls.

Cheers,

GT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drew-1918

With the predecessors of the 20th London being the 2nd and 3rd VBs of the Royal West Kents, is it possible that the slouch hat badges are 'old' RWK ones that were near enough for them at the time of formation? The difference is largely in the scrolls.

Cheers,

GT.

Ah, I see. That makes sense and is interesting to know. Thanks very much for that.

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

RWK.jpg

 

A member of the Royal West Kent's with cloth titles. I can not make out any wording though! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drew-1918

A very nice picture. Tantalisingly close to the cadets postcard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

He could be the London Regt....I am rather torn between RWK or the LR.

 

I would welcome any thoughts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave1418

Toby

its RWK the scroll on the base is different to the 20th London Regt and the gap between the Invicta is bigger also on the London regt.

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

Thank you dave is was a 50/50 choice! 

 

He is a bit of an anomaly that generated about 4 hours worth of discussion at work.  There has never been any documentation of cloth shoulder titles for the MMP of MFP.  THe archives hold a large amount of information on the insignia of the MMP, MFP, CMP and RMP and not a single mention of cloth Shoulder Titles pre 1926. 

 

The only evidence I have found was this postcard (it did generate a fair amount of excitement). Cloth MMP shoulder titles, colour unknown. Note the 1895 sword, I would have placed this image pre 1907, inline with the use of the cloth STs and this variation of sword; however he wears a George V cap badge, very different from the Edward VII, so this image must date from after 1910/11. 

 

I would certainly place it pre Great War.

 

Image courtesy of the RMP museum. 

 

MMP%20Cloth%20Titles%20watermark.jpg

 

MMP%20Cloth%20Titles%20Zoom.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

Would anyone happen to have detailing of the cord shoulder straps used from 1904-1907? 

 

Were they a standard colour or did they differ between Regiments? 

 

Many Thanks

 

8h2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton
6 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Were they a standard colour or did they differ between Regiments? 

 

Always a light-ish khaki colour that I have been aware of Toby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Muerrisch

By khaki do you mean khaki as in India, khaki drill, for example, or drab, the colour of Service Dress from 1902?

 

I think you mean the latter.

 

There is a big difference of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton
1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

By khaki do you mean khaki as in India, khaki drill, for example, or drab, the colour of Service Dress from 1902?

 

I think you mean the latter.

 

There is a big difference of course.

 

No, I mean khaki the colour...

 

khaki - noun:
a dull greenish or brownish-yellow colour.
 
An officers example, but otherwise as per:
 
 
Early_cuff_rank_epaulettes.jpg
 
A private purchase NCO's example:
 
 
KGr_Hq_N_l0_E9_Jvo_Y2_Dl_BPhw_TSs_Qpg_60
 
The colour usually seems to be lighter compared to the SD material.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Muerrisch

Thank you. I believe the definition offered is modern. I think the 1914-18 definition of khaki would be "dust or sand-coloured" .......... the early khaki was obtained by staining with tea and assorted dyes. The definitions offered on the web are not congruent. For example: 

Khaki (UK /ˈkɑːk/, Canada and US /ˈkæk/) is a color, a light shade of yellow-brown. Khaki is a loanword incorporated fromHindustani (Urdu or Hindi) ख़ाकी/خاکی (meaning "soil-colored") and is originally derived from the Persian: خاک [xɒːk] (Khâk, literally meaning "soil"), which came to English from British India[1] via the British Indian Army.

Khaki has been used by many armies around the world for uniforms, including camouflage. It has been used as a color name in English since 1848 when it was first introduced as a military uniform, and was called both drab and khaki[2]—khaki being a translation of the English drab light-brown color.[3] A khaki uniform is often referred to as khakis.

 

SD in 1914 was officially coloured "drab", not khaki, so I think an appropriate description for the cords might be "pale drab".

 

In any case, thank you, because I had no idea how they related to the jacket colour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton
1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. I believe the definition offered is modern...

 

Indeed, because I am a modern man and live in a modern world, not the world of 100 years ago. The world has changed, how words are defined has changed with it. I believe 99% of the current population would have quite correctly understood what I meant, which as a target rate I am quite happy with, and won't be changing :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

Thank you chaps.

 

That is super helpful Andrew, a "a light-ish Khaki" conjures up the colour of KD in my head which this almost is . I am hoping to use a reproduction pistol lanyard that is an almost exact match.

 

Going to make up a tunic for these...

 

titled.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...