Muerrisch Posted 12 May , 2016 Share Posted 12 May , 2016 Caption in error. The scarlet garments are 7-button frocks. The tunic had white front braid and a few other differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 13 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2016 I was fortunate enough to purchase this the other day! Stunning image of a member of the 8th Hussars 1904/05 so much going on here kit wise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 Unusual embroidered? titles on this 11th Hussars chap. Never come across any like this before. I wonder if he's wearing a cut-down embroidered slip on - introduced in June 1916 - and sewn on, as per GRO 2317 of February 1917. See the VIII H example below. The GRO stated on the shoulder at the top of the arm, yet you often see them on the shoulder strap itself (like on the RFA jacket below). Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 I wonder if he's wearing a cut-down embroidered slip on - introduced in June 1916 - and sewn on, as per GRO 2317 of February 1917. See the VIII H example below. The GRO stated on the shoulder at the top of the arm, yet you often see them on the shoulder strap itself (like on the RFA jacket below). The original instructions in 1916 were to wear them on the epaulettes - the 1917 GRO was the one that changed that to the top of the sleeve. So depending on date either is technically in line with regulations: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88885 To add to what Graham has posted the slip-on worsted shoulder titles were introduced in early 1916 (actual pattern sealing started in late 1915) to replace the brass titles (as far as I can tell all units had pattern sealed examples but not sure all had manufactured examples). These never really were popular at least from them actually replacing the brass titles, however photos of these things in use in France are fairly common. As introduced they slipped on the shoulder tab. However at least by Feb 1917 the BEF issued a GRO 2137 (13.2.17) which stated that all worsted shoulder titles will in future be worn on the sleeve just below the point of the shoulder. This GRO may have been preceded by an ACI--but I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 The original instructions in 1916 were to wear them on the epaulettes - the 1917 GRO was the one that changed that to the top of the sleeve. So depending on date either is technically in line with regulations: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88885 I know - I was referring to them being sewn on rather than slipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19mac79 Posted 19 May , 2016 Share Posted 19 May , 2016 A superb article on early titles and straps. Very interesting. Well done chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 I have this one, postmarked 'Sept 15 08', of "A" and "B" Companies 3rd City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) Aldershot. I'm presuming, perhaps wrongly, that the cadets with cloth shoulder titles, are a bunch of 20th Londons they have somehow met in camp. However, I'm not sure that the scroll on the cap badge looks quite right, and I can't quite make out the title. It's just after Volunteers have become the Territorial Force, so perhaps I am missing something. Chris Edit: I can't help but wonder how many of them went on to fight in the Great War and made it through. I seem to remember seeing another photo on here featuring the tall soldier, at the back towards the centre, together with the cadet over his left shoulder, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john gregory Posted 21 May , 2016 Share Posted 21 May , 2016 Nice photo of 1 V NOTTS AND DERBY with woven epaulettes also showing ordinary epaulettes. JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john gregory Posted 21 May , 2016 Share Posted 21 May , 2016 Close up and an original title minus the 1V. jg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 22 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2016 Brilliant photos thank you, some good detail of their cord shoulders straps. I note they are still equipped with Lee Metfords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 close-up 3rd Londs Aldershot '08. 2.jpg With the predecessors of the 20th London being the 2nd and 3rd VBs of the Royal West Kents, is it possible that the slouch hat badges are 'old' RWK ones that were near enough for them at the time of formation? The difference is largely in the scrolls. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 With the predecessors of the 20th London being the 2nd and 3rd VBs of the Royal West Kents, is it possible that the slouch hat badges are 'old' RWK ones that were near enough for them at the time of formation? The difference is largely in the scrolls. Cheers, GT. Ah, I see. That makes sense and is interesting to know. Thanks very much for that. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 21 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2016 A member of the Royal West Kent's with cloth titles. I can not make out any wording though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 23 June , 2016 Share Posted 23 June , 2016 A very nice picture. Tantalisingly close to the cadets postcard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 23 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2016 He could be the London Regt....I am rather torn between RWK or the LR. I would welcome any thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 23 June , 2016 Share Posted 23 June , 2016 Toby its RWK the scroll on the base is different to the 20th London Regt and the gap between the Invicta is bigger also on the London regt. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 24 June , 2016 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2016 Thank you dave is was a 50/50 choice! He is a bit of an anomaly that generated about 4 hours worth of discussion at work. There has never been any documentation of cloth shoulder titles for the MMP of MFP. THe archives hold a large amount of information on the insignia of the MMP, MFP, CMP and RMP and not a single mention of cloth Shoulder Titles pre 1926. The only evidence I have found was this postcard (it did generate a fair amount of excitement). Cloth MMP shoulder titles, colour unknown. Note the 1895 sword, I would have placed this image pre 1907, inline with the use of the cloth STs and this variation of sword; however he wears a George V cap badge, very different from the Edward VII, so this image must date from after 1910/11. I would certainly place it pre Great War. Image courtesy of the RMP museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 29 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2016 Would anyone happen to have detailing of the cord shoulder straps used from 1904-1907? Were they a standard colour or did they differ between Regiments? Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 29 July , 2016 Share Posted 29 July , 2016 6 hours ago, Toby Brayley said: Were they a standard colour or did they differ between Regiments? Always a light-ish khaki colour that I have been aware of Toby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 By khaki do you mean khaki as in India, khaki drill, for example, or drab, the colour of Service Dress from 1902? I think you mean the latter. There is a big difference of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Muerrisch said: By khaki do you mean khaki as in India, khaki drill, for example, or drab, the colour of Service Dress from 1902? I think you mean the latter. There is a big difference of course. No, I mean khaki the colour... khaki - noun: a dull greenish or brownish-yellow colour. An officers example, but otherwise as per: https://postimg.org/image/hvjeypwpj/ A private purchase NCO's example: https://postimg.org/image/rk6rgrwzl/ The colour usually seems to be lighter compared to the SD material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 July , 2016 Share Posted 30 July , 2016 Thank you. I believe the definition offered is modern. I think the 1914-18 definition of khaki would be "dust or sand-coloured" .......... the early khaki was obtained by staining with tea and assorted dyes. The definitions offered on the web are not congruent. For example: Khaki (UK /ˈkɑːkiː/, Canada and US /ˈkækiː/) is a color, a light shade of yellow-brown. Khaki is a loanword incorporated fromHindustani (Urdu or Hindi) ख़ाकी/خاکی (meaning "soil-colored") and is originally derived from the Persian: خاک [xɒːk] (Khâk, literally meaning "soil"), which came to English from British India[1] via the British Indian Army. Khaki has been used by many armies around the world for uniforms, including camouflage. It has been used as a color name in English since 1848 when it was first introduced as a military uniform, and was called both drab and khaki[2]—khaki being a translation of the English drab light-brown color.[3] A khaki uniform is often referred to as khakis. SD in 1914 was officially coloured "drab", not khaki, so I think an appropriate description for the cords might be "pale drab". In any case, thank you, because I had no idea how they related to the jacket colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 31 July , 2016 Share Posted 31 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Muerrisch said: Thank you. I believe the definition offered is modern... Indeed, because I am a modern man and live in a modern world, not the world of 100 years ago. The world has changed, how words are defined has changed with it. I believe 99% of the current population would have quite correctly understood what I meant, which as a target rate I am quite happy with, and won't be changing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 31 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2016 Thank you chaps. That is super helpful Andrew, a "a light-ish Khaki" conjures up the colour of KD in my head which this almost is . I am hoping to use a reproduction pistol lanyard that is an almost exact match. Going to make up a tunic for these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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