Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Superb photo, Toby. Not only rare shoulder titles, but also a view of the short lived coloured arm-of-service piped shoulder straps! 

 

 

Much better than the one I originally posted! and you can actually make out the white outer piping and the inner yellow piping.  Out of interest, the man depicted is Sjt Beckett. He served with the Army Pay Corps from 1895 until 1917, when he was invalided out of the Army due to illness.

 

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

My long serving Scanner has sadly just passed away after 13 years of devout service. I am now reduced to taking pictures on my phone, so please excuse the lack of clarity compared to my previous posts. That said, they have not turned out that bad. 

 

Anyway...my latest acquisition, 1st Hampshire Volunteer Artillery,  Yaverland Camp (I.O.W) 1907.  A nice mix of insignia here including the Special Services Section badge.

 

The main interest was the rare red on blue  "Hants 1 V" cloth shoulder title.  Following the infantry wording (rather than usual R.A)  but with the R.A colouring. 

Note our man standing left is showing his Trumpeter badge with pride!

 

Edited 29 December , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Toby, these are "The Trumpeters" I believe. A case can be made for all to be wearing the badge, unique to the RA I believe.

[FROGSMILE]

Superb, Toby.  A great view on the Brodrick and Field Service caps in wear too.

Edited 30 December , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Unknown TF at camp. Nothing to exciting but some nice Effciency Stars and large scout badges on SD. Note the lighter coloured (Grey?) Caps attached to some of their Haversacks.

[FROGSMILE]

The caps on their haversacks are Brodrick with white covers for Summer undress (see enclosed), Toby.  It makes the date likely to be not long after 1908+/-, I think.

 

Edited 2 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

They are not Brodricks, certainly peaked, theres also a mix of standard 1908 and TF web equipment. The above 13H chap is actually in the all white Brodick of the Regiment not a covered version. Must have been a pig to keep clean.  The was a khaki peaked cover for it I am unware of a white cover for it, aside from RMLI  and a selct few volunteer units.

 

Regards 

Toby 

Edited 5 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

I accept that the caps might be their ‘coloured universal forage caps’, for which there were also white, Summer covers, but I could not see the peaks you refer to, which made me think that they were Brodricks.

As for the 13thH and the now quite famous photo in a Brodrick cap, I agree that the regiment wore an all-white version and recall the illustrations of cavalry caps in the Fosten brother’s ground-breaking ‘cut of the cloth’ series of articles in 1970s-80s Military Modelling magazines.  Examining the photo closely in an enlarged size I felt that I could see details of the gathering that is a feature of such covers (on both top and front flap), but perhaps I’m mistaken.

There was a khaki cover, but examples I’ve seen have a peak section, so there seems to be some room for confusion between a cover for the Brodrick and cover for a cap with a peak.  In coloured images it has that typically British, brown hue of khaki.  There was a white cover for the Brodrick, although I’m unsure as to the extent of its wearing in the Army (a white cover without peak was indisputably issued from 1902 for officers caps and those of bandsmen, and in the former case was invariably worn with the double breasted, blue frock coat worn as undress but smart barracks wear).  The white cover on a Brodrick cap is most commonly seen on RMLI and RMA personnel, who we know wore the Brodrick cap for a lot longer than those in the Army.

Edited 2 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

 

 

The 13H picture is the only photograph I know of the white Brodrick in exsistence , I rescued him in an original frame from a skip in a barracks (I did have to climb in!) and he now has pride of place above my T.V! 

 

The peaked cover is even more of a monstrosity than the cap (of which am I its number 1 fan).  It sits horribly and looks so scruffy. 

 

Edited 7 May , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

I see that you have posted a photo of a mounted soldier wearing the khaki cap cover with peak here in the Forum before.  Enclosed for reference are some other images that have appeared before, but that can perhaps usefully be seen again following on from this discussion.  

Notice that the white RMLI cap cover has a red, half circular flap fitted and I do wonder if something similar is what we see on the 13thH soldier above.

Edited 2 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Brilliant shots, thank you. Theres a few others I have posted too, the Brodick and Cloth S.Ts are my main focus of my image collection. Sadly nowhere really to share my many Brodrick images ! 

 

I also have a rare standing order with the introduction of the cover in 1904, for musketry and field training.  Here are a few of covers. 

 

Regards

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Great images Toby, thank you for posting them.  The peaks seem quite substantial (stiff not floppy), do you think the covers are fitted (in every case) to Brodricks, or coloured universal forage caps (clearly it is a Guards pattern Brodrick in the Irish Guards image)?

Edited 2 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Going back to #455 I think the scout badge is the small, post 1907 variety ....... the early ones were truly enormous.

 

Thank you for the Brodrick covers ............... although I do not share the affection for the cap ...... any cap without peak in days before Raybans must have been a b*gger in low sunlight.

[Toby Brayley]

I can only appologise for the quality of this postcard! but it does show the RA cloth shoulder title, early SD and the covered Brodrick. The others wear an illegible, large title worn with flaming grenades! Perhaps a local VF variation?

 

I think it is a signalling course the assistant instructor in the foreground has crossed flags and signalling equipment at his feet. 

[Toby Brayley]

In penance for my last postcard, Royal Engineers "Harry and Friends after Sunday Church Parade".  Nice clear view of Musketry Prizes.

 

I thought I would add some colour to the pages!  All the uniform and accoutrements are R.E marked. 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/01/2019 at 15:53, Toby Brayley said:

I can only appologise for the quality of this postcard! but it does show the RA cloth shoulder title, early SD and the covered Brodrick. The others wear an illegible, large title worn with flaming grenades! Perhaps a local VF variation?

 

I think it is a signalling course the assistant instructor in the foreground has crossed flags and signalling equipment at his feet. 

 

 

If that’s a grenade above the rank stripes it suggests RE.  I wonder if it’s a joint coastal artillery unit, for which the RE element provided searchlights.

 

The RE church parade group is superb, thanks for posting Toby.

 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

An unknown Imperial Yeomanry at camp, in embellished Service Dress.  It is interesting to note that they have their own style of Efficiency Star as demonstrated by the Serjeant. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Another evocative image Toby, great to see.  The type of uniform is always interesting I feel, as it was relatively short-lived, falling between the end of the 2nd Boer War and then being phased out as the standard 02 drab SD began to be rolled out by the TF Associations from 1908.  There appears to have been a range of colours used for facings and embellishment on this intermediate dress.

 

Edited 10 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Another first, I believe. These stars are SEVEN points, no fewer. I have seen a fair number of SIXes, usually on artillery, but seven is a new departure. Good spot Toby.

Take a cigar.

[Toby Brayley]

19 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Another first, I believe. These stars are SEVEN points, no fewer. I have seen a fair number of SIXes, usually on artillery, but seven is a new departure. Good spot Toby.

Take a cigar.

 

Thank you chaps. I had thought about a Middlesex I.Y connection, but they have an 8 pointed star cap badge. Yet another mystery thrown up! 

Edited 11 January , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

A new arrival, and right up there with my favourites.

 

8th Hussars c1906.

 

The seldom seen blue on yellow Cavalry cloth shoulder title on the S.D. It is interesting to see the Brodricks and S.D Caps (not covered brodricks) together, it was obviously worn in different dress states by the Regiment in this era. It also provides us with a great study of the Cavalry Tartan Frock; it is the first time I have seen it with cord shoulder straps. 

 

 

 

Edited 11 January , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Another fantastically diverse image Toby.  Very interesting to see two patterns of tartan frock, one with shoulder cords and scalloped pocket flaps, and one with squared off pocket flaps and shoulder straps with woven titles.  Similarly, two patterns of SD in the same shot.  I don’t think that I’ve seen such a mixture of OR dress in a single, regimental group, before.

[Toby Brayley]

A pair from the Gloucestershire Regiment, nice view of crossed rifles and one of the best studies of the 5 button serge frock I have seen!  

 

The 5 button frock.

 

 

Bugler badge on the arm and label. 

 

Edited 14 January , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

I am far from clear on the time line of five as opposed to seven button frock at HOME [let alone the vast number of buttons on RA and prhaps some Corps/

Can anyone enlighten me please?

[Toby Brayley]

35 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I am far from clear on the time line of five as opposed to seven button frock at HOME [let alone the vast number of buttons on RA and prhaps some Corps/

Can anyone enlighten me please?

 

Good question one that has always been of particular interest me, but I can find no definitive answer. I have images of 5 buttons frocks in use alongside 7 buttons, with regular Btns,  at home right up to the start of the Great War. 

 

I have a sealed pattern 5 button from 1894 ( declared obsolete in 1903, with the intro of the 7 Button) and one dated 1908!?? Also a 1910, 7 button that has be converted to the 1912 specification. There are also 5 & 7 buttons minus lower pockets, an interesting minefield! I am more than happy to share my examples. 

 

I am not sure on the location of the Gloucestershire picture but it is a UK 1908 postmark, again nothing definitive as the picture could have been taken anywhere, but the peaked forage cap date it post 1906. 

Edited 14 January , 2019 by Toby Brayley