Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

"Joined in May 1899, R.G.A.

  Transferred to R.F.A. June 1908. Howitzer Bde. R.F.A."

 

 

He is still wearing the white cord tunic embellishments of artillery militia, something rarely seen in photographs.  Such differentiations were phased out after 1908.

Edited 24 October , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Proficient Sjt of the 2nd Volunteer Btn Yorks and Lancs.  The biggest QSA & KSA ribbons I have ever seen! 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Proficient Sjt of the 2nd Volunteer Btn Yorks and Lancs.  The biggest QSA & KSA ribbons I have ever seen! 

 

 

 

That depth of ribbons is how it was first laid down circa early 1900s, I'm not sure when it changed, but presumably not that long afterwards, and certainly by 1908.

Edited 24 October , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Royal Engineers c1905. A mix of Service Dress types and yet again a single 1899 Serge Frock in use as late as this.

 

Interesting to see his whistle on the lanyard at the variation in the way the SD cap is worn. 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Shropshire Imperial Yeomanry, the card was sent home to Shrewsbury in 1908.  Wonderful shot of Scouts badge, judging by the way it appears to be forming with his arm, I would say it is of gold wire. 

 

Nice mix of head gear, Field Service Caps a Torin and the blue peaked Forage Cap. 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes bullion wire stripes and scouts badge on blue frocks (aka ‘jumpers’).

Edited 5 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

I picked up this tatty photograph, it has scanned rather well. Some interesting variations of farrier badges.   I think there is a mix of units, perhaps a farrier course c1903? 

 

Theres lots to see here, note an unusual mix of early Service Dress, piped and un-piped detachable shoulder-straps, the Farrier-Sjt seated front is missing one altogether!). There are even some brass titles being worn on the detachable-straps and a lone 1899 serge frock. 

[FROGSMILE]

Evocative photo Toby, I think you are likely right that it’s a farrier course photo.  I’m not sure where the farrier school was, but probably at Canterbury or Aldershot, or perhaps more likely there were several regional schools.

[Muerrisch]

Interesting to me because the change over from worsted trade/appointment badges, starting in 1906 and which inevitably took a few years, has not produced[ to my eye] any gilding metal ones. So the photo is, I believe, fairly close to 1907, no minuses, and a little scope for pluss a year or two.

This fits the other evidence of course.

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Interesting to me because the change over from worsted trade/appointment badges, starting in 1906 and which inevitably took a few years, has not produced[ to my eye] any gilding metal ones. So the photo is, I believe, fairly close to 1907, no minuses, and a little scope for pluss a year or two.

This fits the other evidence of course.

 

The central figure with white shirt and black tie is quite intriguing and might well offer further clues.  He has neither pips/stars on shoulder straps nor cuffs, and is absent a cap badge (there was no OSDB insignia at first), and yet has gorget tabs.  A general staff officer was unlikely to sit in on a farrier course photo so I am thinking he is more likely a Sub-Conductor.  I recall that for a short period Conductor’s and Sub-Conductors of AOC wore blue tabs.  

 

At around the turn of the century two patterns of blue patrol frock were authorised, one with a traditional high collar and the other open and stepped (revers) worn with white shirt and black silk ribbed tie. They were known as types A and B.  The gentleman concerned appears to be wearing a prototype, officer pattern, drab SD jacket, but with the only shirt and tie initially authorised: white and black. 

 

Conductors and Sub-Conductors dressed as officers, but the latter without rank badges at the time (until 1909), so I am thinking then that the date is probably closer to the 1903 suggested by Toby.  Any later and I would have expected to see him dressed in khaki shirt and tie and the men surrounding him In Brodrick caps rather than the field service caps seen here.  

 

Furthermore, none of the men have the worsted, herringbone tape stripes authorised for SD, and one man at top left still wears the red on white chevrons previously worn on khaki drill uniform up until the end of the 2nd Boer War.  All-in-all this rather unassuming photo is a very revealing snapshot in time.

Edited 17 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Agreed! I really cannot think why I inferred no earlier than 1907 ............... 

I think photos of conductors and sub-conductors must be rather scarce. Good spot.

[Toby Brayley]

TF Worcestershires  sent from Salisbury camp in August 1912. 

 

"How about this for swank? We got the the officers to come and sit with us...turned out alright" 

 

Nice display of efficiency stars. 

[Muerrisch]

and quartermaster sergeant [rank] who is not the RQMS thus probably the orderly room QMS clerk.

I am often struck, as here, by the non-use of the "this year" efficiency diamond by old timers in possession of 4/5 year stars.

This unit seems not to bother with SNCO proficiency stars.

[Rum Ration]

On 24/10/2018 at 05:30, Toby Brayley said:

Proficient Sjt of the 2nd Volunteer Btn Yorks and Lancs.  The biggest QSA & KSA ribbons I have ever seen! 

 

 

Stupendous portrait Toby! ! !

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

On 21/11/2018 at 14:18, Rum Ration said:

 

 

Stupendous portrait Toby! ! !

 

 

 

I thought so too! I will say it time and time again the clarity on these older images is superb at times. 

 

12th Lancers Shooting team with an array of badges! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 November , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

11 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

I thought so too! I will say it time and time again the clarity on these older images is superb at times. 

I couldn't agree more Toby.

It's amazing, and disappointing that so many first time posters will post extremely substandard phone-grab images often of unknown sooldiers, in various parts of the forum. Badly illuminated, at an angle, out of focus, often with reflected flash on glass.

The information is there, they only need to scan them properly.

 

As compared to your excellent examples Toby, as always.

 

[Muerrisch]

The lancer shooting team have seemingly neglected both arme blanche and the pigsticking ...... only musketry badges by the look of it.

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting too to see the officer wearing the very short-lived Type B pattern of Blue Patrol uniform with stepped collar, white shirt and black silk ribbed tie.  The Royal Marines officers still wear that type today.

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

And on further inspection two soldiers appear not to be marksmen at all.

Super photo and, like just about every period group, lots of interest if we dig deep.

[Toby Brayley]

Fusiliers with a mix of cloth and Brass STs. 

[FROGSMILE]

Looks like 2nd Battalion cloth shoulder title on one man?  The Corporal and man far left with four good conduct badges, are both drummers, perhaps two of a particular company, as that was the distribution.  One man wears the canvas fatigue uniform generally worn for dirty work.

Edited 29 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looks like 2nd Battalion cloth shoulder title on one man?  The Corporal and man far left with four good conduct badges, are both drummers, perhaps two of a particular company, as that was the distribution.  One man wears the canvas fatigue uniform generally worn for dirty work.

 

Or possibly Depot details?

The men looked pretty relaxed.

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Or possibly Depot details?

The men looked pretty relaxed.

 

Yes it might be I suppose, my attention was drawn by the visible cloth shoulder title, but it’s quite feasible that he had not removed it.  Presumably depot men were required to simply remove the battalion number part.

Edited 30 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Very pleased with my latest arrival. Herefordshires (see post #263). Not only is the title very clear but they are wearing 1899 Serge with shoulder twists.  

 

All my favourites in one place,cloth insignia ,1899 serge, 03 Equipment, MLEs and a lone 1888 bayonet! 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

And a gilding metal pioneer badge to boot!