Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

On 25/07/2018 at 13:49, FROGSMILE said:

 

Appears to be the 'Acting Sergeant Major' of a TF Battalion (a regular Colour Sergeant on attachment), who was in the unique position until 1915, of being a sergeant major, but not a warrant officer.

 

How is it Distinguishable as an Acting SM with the V/TF? rather than a Regular SM,  was the 4 chervon and crown used by the Regulars as well?     I dare say I have opened a can of worms in regards to early rank! 

 

Thank you in advance!

Edited 22 August , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

How is it Distinguishable as an Acting SM with the V/TF? rather than a Regular SM,  was the 4 chervon and crown used by the Regulars as well?     I dare say I have opened a can of worms in regards to early rank! 

 

Thank you in advance!

 

When the rank of warrant officer was introduced across the Regular Army in 1881, only a select number of the most senior First Class Staff Sergeants were upgraded to that rank.  Of the auxiliary forces only the Militia also introduced warrant rank, and the Volunteer Force were not permitted to do so (which policy was also carried across to the Territorial Force in 1908).  The reason for this seems to have been because the VF were only ever intended for static, point defence with an overall focus on musketry/marksmanship.  Conversely, the Militia, who were officially the reserve Force for the Regulars, were trained to manoeuvre and received more comprehensive training.

To reflect these differences, but also the fact that time served Colour Sergeants were posted to VF units as instructors with one traditionally appointed as Acting Sergeant Major by the commanding officer, badges of rank were different to those of the Regular and Militia equivalents.  The latter wore a crown on the lower part of the right arm, whereas VF Acting Sergeant Majors wore 4-stripes point up with a crown above in the same position.

This situation remained until 1915, when several changes took place and, as well as the introduction of a 2nd Class of warrant officer for a wide range of hitherto senior NCO appointments, the TF  Sergeant Major of battalion became a ‘Regimental Sergeant Major’ like his Regular and Special Reserve counterpart and was afforded the rank of warrant officer 1st Class and the exact same badge of rank.

 

Edited 22 August , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

.

 

Thank you Frogsmile, super stuff and thank you for taking the time to put together a comprehensive reply such as that.  Your post clears it up perfectly. I have a few images of the rank in use in the mid to late 1900s so all must be asigned to the TF etc. 

Regards

Toby 

 

Edited 22 August , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

 Lancashire Fusilers TF 1910. 

 

 

Edited 22 August , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Yes those are two good examples, Toby.  I especially like the LF ASM in Marching Order complete with his “sword staff sergeant and carriage”, and a directing cane ready for gesticulating and upbraiding.

 

As a final point the badges of rank for both the ASM and the Permanent Staff Instructors had originally and for many years comprised 4-stripes point down on the upper arm, the former with larger crown above and the latter with conjoined crossed rifles and smaller crown above (see enclosed colour image).  In 1901, the ASMs badge changes slightly to that described previously on the lower arm, and in 1908 following new regulations for the TF the instructors adopted a standard sergeant or colour sergeants badge with crossed rifles above stripes but below crown on the upper arm, and thus the immediate visual distinction of regular permanent staff was largely lost.

 

VR's 1897 - Clothing, &c., of Sergeant Instructors;-
"Para 846. A non-commissioned officer of the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Infantry or Medical Staff Corps, if appointed acting Sergeant Major, will, when the clothing is supplied in kind, be supplied with 'Sergeant Majors'(not Warrant Officers) uniform at the public expense. Other Sergeant-Instructors will wear 'Colour Sergeants' or 'Sergeants' uniform, according to their rank; those posted to Volunteer Rifles will wear four chevrons surmounted by a crown above the elbow, except when the Sergeant Instructor, is entitled to the badge of crossed rifles and crown sanctioned by Paragraph 850, in which the crown forms part of the badge."

VR's 1901 - Clothing, &c., of Sergeant-Instructors.
"846. A non-commissioned officer of the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Infantry or Royal Army Medical Corps, if appointed acting Sergeant Major, will, when the clothing is supplied in kind, be supplied with 'Sergeant Majors'(not Warrant Officers) uniform at the public expense, and will wear a 4-bar chevron and crown below the elbow. Sergeant-Instructors will wear 'Battery' or 'Company Sergeant-Majors', 'Colour Sergeants' or 'Sergeants' uniform, together with the usual badges of rank worn above the elbow ; but those posted to Infantry Corps will wear a 4-bar chevron and crown in the same position."
 

The enclosed photo of a Derbyshire Regt TF battalion Staff shows the Acting Sergeant Major, a Colour Sergeant and the unit's permanent staff musketry instructors with badges in accordance with 1908 regulations, following the establishment of the TF.  These latter brought the musketry instructor sergeants badges of rank and appointment into line with their regular counterparts.

 

Also, an Acting Sergeant Major of the 1st Duke of Cornwall Rifle Volunteers with badge as per the 1897 regulations.

 

Edited 24 August , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Brilliant Postcard sent in 1907 to Bermuda of the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry. Lots to see here including the Brodick in use as late as 1907, variations of CORNWALL cloth shoulder titles and 1st Btn Tabs. They are wearing a Guernsey style of knitwear that they also appear to be wearing under the SD.

 

Note the strung horn badge worn above the crossed axes of the pioneer.

Edited 29 August , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Great photo Toby.  Could the photo have been taken before 1907, but still been available a few years later?  It would explain the Brodrick.  The Guernsey style jersey had been issued since Victorian times and was a feature of British-African auxiliaries, Royal Engineer submarine miners and even mounted infantry Circa 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  They continued throughout WW1 and in between the Wars.  Very hard wearing, utilitarian, and ‘itchy’ worsted wool. Makes me scratch just thinking about it! 

Edited 29 August , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

A nice group photograph of members of the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, wearing Slouch hats. The "Royal Sussex 2 V" shoulder titles can be clearly seen along with one Special Services Section badge. The Bugler is wearing a strung bugle badge but it is very faint in this photo.

Edited 29 August , 2018 by Sepoy

[Toby Brayley]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Great photo Toby.  Could the photo have been taken before 1907, but still been available a few years later? 

 

Most probably is! It is Postmarked January 1907 but the Brodrick has been seen well into 1906 and beyond,  although you would like to think that it would be one or the other. I guess the relaxed nature of the photo might explain it. He might, like me, even be a rare fan of the cap! 

 

I have seen the blue Guernseys in frequent wear in the 2nd ABW (my main interest, but alas I have no where to share my photos), this is the first time I have seen them worn under SD. 

 

Regards

Toby 

20 hours ago, Sepoy said:

A nice group photograph of members of the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, wearing Slouch hats. The "Royal Sussex 2 V" shoulder titles can be clearly seen along with one Special Services Section badge. The Bugler is wearing a strung bugle badge but it is very faint in this photo.

 

 

 

Superb stuff, thank you for sharing! 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Most probably is! It is Postmarked January 1907 but the Brodrick has been seen well into 1906 and beyond,  although you would like to think that it would be one or the other. I guess the relaxed nature of the photo might explain it. He might, like me, even be a rare fan of the cap! 

 

I have seen the blue Guernseys in frequent wear in the 2nd ABW (my main interest, but alas I have no where to share my photos), this is the first time I have seen them worn under SD. 

 

Regards

Toby 

 

 

Yes, I don’t think I’ve seen them under SD either, although the issue cardigan is quite commonly seen in that way.

At least one of the chaps has the new pattern jacket with fixed shoulder straps (front right), so that together with majority SD caps seen alongside a lone Brodrick suggests to me a date of 1905-06.

Edited 30 August , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

New favourite addition to my collection.  When it comes to shooting badges it doesn't get better than this! 

 

1st Devonshire Regiment and their trophies 1907. Superb array of shooting badges worn by most; including best shot of Sgts (wreathed with crown), best shot among Cpls, L/Cpls and Ptes (wreathed with star). Most wear the best shot in Company (crossed rifles with star). The seated Sgt at front also wears crossed rifle on his lower right  awarded to each Sgt of the best shooting company.  

 

There is even a single Devon cloth Shoulder title (a new addition to this thread) mixed in with the brass and Mk1 SMLEs! 

 

Enjoy

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

Just revisiting this wonderful, fascinating thread - thanks to you all for posting.

 

I know I'm going to regret yet another uninformed query (I'm sure the answer's obvious), but - Mandalay? Those Devonshire marksmen don't look dressed for The East, would they perhaps be showing off silverware on return to more temperate climes? I've Googled, but can't seem to find where the 2nd Bn was stationed between South Africa and the commencement of WW1.

 

Cheers, Pat.

 

[FROGSMILE]

The 1st Devon’s were posted to Burma (Rangoon and subsidiary stations) in 1905, Pat.  In 1908 they were posted back to Britain (Tidworth, Hants) and I suspect that the photo could not be taken until then.

Edited 4 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks Frogsmile, that would explain it.

[Toby Brayley]

Appendix A of Army Order 10 of 1902 this fills in some of the missing gaps and confirms some of our assumptions based on later titles. 

 

 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

A very unusual and unofficial cloth Scout Badge (perhaps 1st Class) worn by this 15th Hussar. 

[FROGSMILE]

Great stuff Toby, I have never seen one with a scroll like that before.  Probably a special regimental pattern methinks.  The cavalry had an especial affiliation with the task of military scouting, not least of course as a result of its development my Lt Gen Baden-Powell, who was himself a hussar.

Edited 24 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

To follow on form the previous VF/TF sergeant-major’s badge discussion. Here is a fine example, RE, 1914 postmarked card. 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Battalion Scouts of the 1st Battalion K.R.R.C 

 

The seldom seen "S in Wreath" worn by scouts of the British and Indian Infantry, in India. 

[Toby Brayley]

Mid 1900s Cabinet Card. Whilst I have seen plenty of Great War era cards of Women dressed in Men's uniform this is one of the only ones I have seen from the Edwardian era, so I had to snap it up.

Aside from the unusual subject matter it provides us with a brilliant study of the Blue on Red Royal Engineers Cloth Titles (R.E.), Efficiency Star and shoulder twists/detailing of the early (pre November 1904) Service Dress. 

[Toby Brayley]

A selection of brass scout badges and related ephemera . 

 

Badge with Bar = Cavalry, Regimental Scouts, Scouts Serjeants. Infantry = Scout Serjeants and 1st Class Scouts.

 

Badge minus Bar = Cavalry, Squadron Scouts. Infantry = Trained Scout

 

 

Shown from left to right.  Large style "1st Class Scout", White metal small 1st Class Scout, small 1st Class Scout, Trained Infantry Scout (minus the bar) and an unusual sand cast variant of the 1st Class badge. 

 

 

Edited 8 October , 2018 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

Rather happy with this one. 3rd (Militia) Btn of the Northamptonshire Regiment. 

 

Title reads NORTHAMPTON, a mix of detachable shoulder straps and twists.  Also there are two chaps still wearing 1899 Serge Frocks! 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb snapshot in time Toby, thanks for posting it.

[AmericanTommy]

Sadly I can't get a higher quality scan, but here are some awesome dark cloth titles from the 5th Glosters

 

 

[GWF1967]

"Joined in May 1899, R.G.A.

  Transferred to R.F.A. June 1908. Howitzer Bde. R.F.A."