Tom Morgan Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Every now and again I find myself wondering where Rose E. B. Coombs got the idea for her book title from. Does anyone know? "Before Endeavours Fade" has the same initial letters as "British Expeditionary Force" of course, and I'm sure that someone once told me that this was part of the explanation, but I can't remember any details. Can anyone help? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Tom, I am at work now, and don't have the book with me, but I think she explains the title either in her intro or on the inside cover. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought so. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 It's a superb book and was the first Great War book bought for me by my wife. It really cemented my interest in the Great War. It was no coincidence of course that Before Endeavours Fade matched the initials of the BEF, this was Rose Coombs intention. I guess the full title was a reference to promote study and interest in the battlefields and sites of the Great War before the people or places involved were lost forever? When the book was first published in the mid-seventies there was of course far less interest in the Great War than we find today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Tom I may be rather thick ( and many would rush to agree) but I used Before Endeavous Fade for many years until it recently hit me that this was the initials of the BEF. A clever and timely title as I,m sure the veterams were already beginning to disappear even when Rose Coombes began her work. I heard a tale from someone that her ashes were scattered at the Ramparts cemetery Lille Gate Ypres anyone know if that is correct? salientguide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 19 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Salientguide, the suggestion that Rose Coombs's ashes were scattered in the Ramparts Cemetery often appears in print, but always with the proviso that it's "rumoured" or "widely believed" to be so. Someone must know for sure, but nobody's saying! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 LEGLEY, Vic (1915-1994) Before Endeavours Fade - Concerto published 1977. could this have had anything to do with it? Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred van Woerkom Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Actually. Miss Coombs explained the title when I met her, many years ago. It is the initials of the BEF as has been pointed out before. Regards, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Salientguide, the suggestion that Rose Coombs's ashes were scattered in the Ramparts Cemetery often appears in print, but always with the proviso that it's "rumoured" or "widely believed" to be so. Someone must know for sure, but nobody's saying! Tom Tom, I didn't know that maybe these are nothing but "rumours". But I'm sure someone at the IFF Documentation Centre (where they have the Rose Coombs collection) will know. I will inquire (next Wednesday). Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 I'm pretty sure that most people have got the idea that the ashes were scattered at Ramparts from the Holts' Ypres Salient guide, which states it as fact: 'Rose Coombs' ashes were buried here on 4th May 1991....marked only by a rosebush' (First Edition page 169) Not wishing to knock the Holts in any way, as they have done a huge amount for Great War research and any book inevitably contains minor mistakes but influential as their works have been they have been responsible for the spread of some other 'trench legends' which have been assimilated by other authors. As discussed on this forum before this includes the widespread, but erroneous, notion that the two Australian VCs buried at Tyne Cot won their medals attacking the pillboxes there. Is Rose Coombs another example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Mark (and others), I'm "afraid" that Major Holt is correct. No myth. The ashes were buried indeed, at Ramparts Cemetery Lille Gate. (Not scattered.) From a 100% reliable Ypres source : the urn containing the ashes was buried in the cemetery on a to 'insiders' known but unmarked place. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 25 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Aurel - thanks for taking the trouble to check the facts. It's always good to know these little details. It also seems clear that Rose Coombs chose the title for her book because of the letters BEF - British Expeditionary Force. But why did she choose the words "Before Endeavours Fade?" Why not "Bravery Ever Faithful" or "Brave Every Foe" or some other words? Malcolm has mentioned Vic Legley's Concerto - "Before Endeavours Fade" but can anyone find a link between the two? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 (1) It also seems clear that Rose Coombs chose the title for her book because of the letters BEF - British Expeditionary Force. But why did she choose the words "Before Endeavours Fade?" Why not "Bravery Ever Faithful" or "Brave Every Foe" or some other words? (2) Malcolm has mentioned Vic Legley's Concerto - "Before Endeavours Fade" but can anyone find a link between the two? Tom Tom (1) I wish I knew. Did she start with BEF, knowing its military meaning but giving it an additional meaning) ? (Something like the soldiers did with SRD jars, making it (humourously) Soldiers Run Dry) And if so, as you say, why exactly Before Endeavours Fade ? Why not something else that made sense too ? Had she come across this somewhere else ? I really have no idea. (2) Interesting question. So, let's ask Google. And to my surprise, when I entered : Before Endeavours Fade Legley you know what appeared first ? Your posting !!! Then I found that Victor Legley (shamefacedly I have to admit I didn't know he was Flemish (born Hazebrouck, north of France, 2 months after the gas attack, probably his parents were refugees I guess, died Oostende 1994). He had his musical education in ... Ypres. I found that he wrote Before Endeavours Fade in 1977 (opus 92) and 1979 (opus 92b). And ... Rose Coombs first published her book in 1976. So it appears she was first. Did Victor Legley find his inspiration for his opus (1977) in Rose Coombs' book (1976) ? And knowing that books normally are not written the year they are published, and musical works not played the year they are created, it makes everything very puzzling. Or did both find their inspiration in a common source, independently ? Back to where we started from ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 when I entered : Before Endeavours Fade Legley you know what appeared first ? Your posting !!! Google tracks high traffic and content rich sites. The forum and Long, Long Trail get amazingly high ratings. Try entering "British Army" - you'll be surprised where we are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 Thanks, Chris, For this answers one of my questions about how Google works. (Why some pages are on top of the list, and others deep down.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 25 November , 2004 Share Posted 25 November , 2004 I should add that my eldest son is a music teacher and pointed me in Legley's direction. Looking at Rose Coomb's book it is obvious from the title and the way it appears. ie. BEFORE ENDEAVOURS FADE Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 November , 2004 Share Posted 26 November , 2004 Looking at Rose Coomb's book it is obvious from the title and the way it appears. ie. BEFORE ENDEAVOURS FADE Aye Malcolm Malcolm, No doubt the initials of Before Endeavours Fade refer to British Expeditionary Force. But the question has been narrowed down to this excruciating issue : where did Rose Coombes get these words from, after having decided that it had to be B... E... F... ? I think we can say that it was Victor Legley who found his inspiration for the name of his opus 92 in Rose Coombs's book, not the other way round. But where did she find hers ? (I am also asking on behalf of Tom M., for I know he is getting desperate, and this issue and Rose Coombs is becoming an obsession. As far as I am concerned, the title is the result of Rose Coombs's creative mind. After trying several alternatives I think she finally selected the title as we know it. On page 2 of my edition I read : "... Before Endeavours Fade ... a name specially chosen by her to match the initial letters of the BEF (...)" "Chosen" ... Don't you think that this points out that she made it herself ? (Yet, writing this I am aware that it might also mean that she chose the title from a series of expressions and phrases that already existed before.) I give up. Unless I Google on, hoping to find a source of "Before Endeavours Fade" NOT referring to neither Rose Coombs nor Victor Legley, but to something older than 1976. A poem or something like that. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 27 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2004 Today I happened to speak to a former colleague of Rose Coombs - someone who knew her well for many years. He says that he had always understood that Miss Coombs chose the words, "Before Endeavours Fade" all by herself. This would explain why we can't find any references which pre-date the publication of the book. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 27 November , 2004 Share Posted 27 November , 2004 Although the phrase brilliantly sums up the raison d'etre for Rose's book and cleverly honours the B.E.F , I don't find the phrase particularly poetical or literary so I think it likely Rose coined it. God Bless Her ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 12 February , 2006 Share Posted 12 February , 2006 I bought a copy of this book today in an antiquarian book shop and did a search to see if anyone had mentioned it before and this topic came up. The previous owner of the book I bought must have written to Rose Coombs to ask when was the best time to go to the battlefields weather wise because inside the book was a lovely bonus, a letter from Rose Coombs herself dated 19th Aug 1982 in reply giving details of the weather at certain times of the year at Ypres and the Somme. Also inside the book was a letter from G Gruwez Chairman of the Last Post Committee in reply to a different query I was going to ask somewhere what you all thought of this book but I see from many other posts that a lot of Pals recommend it Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 12 February , 2006 Share Posted 12 February , 2006 I think it's a very good way to incorporate the initials BEF into the book title and the words Before Endeavours Fade sum up the whole meaning and ethos of the book and why it was written Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 13 February , 2006 Share Posted 13 February , 2006 I should add that my eldest son is a music teacher and pointed me in Legley's direction. Looking at Rose Coomb's book it is obvious from the title and the way it appears. ie. BEFORE ENDEAVOURS FADE Aye Malcolm Double BEF. BEF ORE E NDEAVOURS F ADE Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutrino Posted 13 February , 2006 Share Posted 13 February , 2006 Although the phrase brilliantly sums up the raison d'etre for Rose's book and cleverly honours the B.E.F , I don't find the phrase particularly poetical or literary so I think it likely Rose coined it. God Bless Her ! Although I agree that 'Before Endeavours Fade' doesn't have the poetry of say 'In Flanders Fields', 'Before Endeavours Fade' sums up for me the whole poignancy of everything concerning the Great War and how it is viewed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 14 February , 2006 Share Posted 14 February , 2006 My edition @ 1994 states inside front cover in " About the Author", ' - a name specially chosen by her to match the initial letters of the BEF- '. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 18 February , 2006 Share Posted 18 February , 2006 May Rose E. B. Coombs have been influenced by general George S. Patton's "Compared to war, all other human endeavours fade to insignificance." Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 May Rose E. B. Coombs have been influenced by general George S. Patton's "Compared to war, all other human endeavours fade to insignificance." Kath. Only just noticed the post Kath. I'd say you've got it in one. What would the date of this quotation be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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