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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

A few Ottoman Cartridges


assafx

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i can't enlarge it enough but they look from the same kind to me.

Edited by assafx
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Julian,

A nice photograph; thanks for posting.  I think you are right but bear in mind that quite often the equipment in these studio photographs is supplied by the photographer/studio.

Anyway, in the meantime, I do hope you and your family are keeping well.

Best wishes,

Michael.  

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Just now, Michael Haselgrove said:

Julian,

A nice photograph; thanks for posting.  I think you are right but bear in mind that quite often the equipment in these studio photographs is supplied by the photographer/studio.

Anyway, in the meantime, I do hope you and your family are keeping well.

Best wishes,

Michael.  

 

Thanks Michael - and absolutely true - a bit of over dressing there! I think SS once posted a photograph of an Ottoman chappie with two bayonets so not too unusual!

 

The bandoliers here... If I am right on the rifle, those bandolier bullets are wrong - look like spitzers to me, incorrect for an 1890? - but happy to be corrected. The bandoliers themselves are interesting - a pattern I have not seen before (not that I have studied these at all), and I'll send this photograph to Chris Flhaerty for his comments. Note also the lack of a crescent and star on the buckle... Incidentally, I did see a C and Star buckle last Sunday at the monthly Antika Pazara but I had to choose between it and the 'Yellow Devils' P1888 I posted a day or so ago - which obviously won...

 

All well here, thanks, except for the 40% drop in my salary (I am paid in lira!) and the 25% inflation - and I am certainly avoiding a certain consulate!:thumbsup: On the plus side - still 20 degree days even in Ankara

 

Julian

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Chris Flaherty replied re: the photograph in post 100. He dates it to 1909 noting the chappie is wearing a new uniform with a wool hat, and the collar numbers are for the 2nd company, 11th Regtiment. Apparently this "Mexican-Bandolero" was common from 1909 up to WW1, and came about as a result of the 1909 countercoup (against the Young Turks 1908 coup), after which there was a mass issue of modern weapons to the army, previously given access to firearms for limited training only. This in turn resulted in the Ottoman army adopting an 'area-effect' doctrine in which poorly-trained soldiers relied on overwhelming firepower rather that accuracy. 

 

Trajan

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  • 1 year later...
On 31/10/2015 at 03:06, shippingsteel said:

Hi Assaf, the manufacturer of the 11mm Greek Gras cartridge was the Georg Roth factory in Vienna, Austria.

It is also a fact that the Turks made use of these Greek Gras rifles which they captured during the Balkan Wars.

Shown below are photos of the Greek cartridge compared with the locally made Turkish 11x59R Gras cartridge.

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-68299500-1446253513_thumb.jpost-52604-0-67094300-1446253524_thumb.j

 

Hi shippingsteel,

The letters in the upper side of the 11mm Greek Gras cartridge, is not "GR", but it's definitely "CR", and i am still looking what it means (so i am not sure that it means Georg Roth). I am sending you a clear photo to check it.

The "Ε" and the "Σ" are probably the first letters of the phrase "ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΣ ΣΤΡΑΤΟΣ = GREEK ARMY", that is still being used by the greek army.

viber_image_2020-05-29_01-01-29.jpg

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Hi KingAlex the Georg Roth factory in Vienna Austria was a well known manufacturer of ammunition and it's headstamps possibly some of the most easily recognisable amongst cartridge collectors. So I think you will find that the identification is correct ... but please feel free to undertake your own research if you are uncertain.

 

Cheers, SS 

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Assaf, I can see what you mean but the little tail makes the 'C' a 'G'. As SS commented, Georges Roth, a well-known manufacturer. The same mark is found on the ammunition they made for the Mannlichers. I think I have some Greek Mannlicher cartridge cases around and will check later, 'after class'(!) on their markings.

Edited by trajan
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42 minutes ago, trajan said:

Assaf, I can see what you mean but the little tail makes the 'C' a 'G'. As SS commented, Georges Roth, a well-known manufacturer. The same mark is found on the ammunition they made for the Mannlichers. I think I have some Greek Mannlicher cartridge cases around and will check later, 'after class'(!) on their markings.

Julian,

 

It wasn't me 😁.

i never had an issue with the GR monogram...

Alexander here is an example from White and Burton 1963:

 

 

Screenshot_20200529-081552_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

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Since the 1870 there was a plant in Pressburg (Bratislava) now capitol city of Slovakia of Georg Roth, the stamps are identical of both plants probably, or the GR from Pressburg is little smaller In WW1 they made 2 millions rifle cartridges per day.

Edited by AndyBsk
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I though the Slovakian ones were marked J (for Jiri = Georg)? Or was that just the post WW1 cartridge cases?

 

Julian

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All marked JR are post 1918, the plant worked since 1870. Juraj Roth is Georg Roth in german, Jiri is czech not slovak.

Steyr delivered a large ammount of Gras rifles to Greece, most real complete with ammunition. So the CR intertwined is mostly a GR with damaged G letter inside.

Edited by AndyBsk
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  • 3 years later...

I know that this thread has been dormant for a few years but I would be most grateful if anyone can decipher these headstamps.
Assuming the cartridges are for 7.65 x 53mm Turkish rounds, they were brought back from Gallipoli by my Gt Gt Uncle Max who served with the Royal Naval Divisional Engineers.

Many thanks

Sepoy
Picture1.png.37f2834f516919885a9425c5ee8d3248.png

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They are all ottoman 7.65X53mm.

in all of them you can see the Ottoman flag and the word Mauser.

from left to right: one is from 1320 al Hijra which is about 1902

the second is dated 1326 which is about 1908 and the third is 1327 (1909).

The letters according to Ken elks might represent the manufacturing place in Germany "kuf" might be karlsruhe.

 

I hope it helped.

 

Assaf

 

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1 minute ago, assafx said:

They are all ottoman 7.65X53mm.

in all of them you can see the Ottoman flag and the word Mauser.

from left to right: one is from 1320 al Hijra which is about 1902

the second is dated 1326 which is about 1908 and the third is 1327 (1909).

The letters according to Ken elks might represent the manufacturing place in Germany "kuf" might be karlsruhe.

 

I hope it helped.

 

Assaf

 

Brilliant Assaf

Thank you so much for your help in identifying them!

Sepoy

 

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What Assaf said except the dates stamped are 1325, 1326, 1327 ... so approximately manufactured between 1907 and 1909.

Cheers, SS 

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On 24/08/2023 at 06:51, shippingsteel said:

What Assaf said except the dates stamped are 1325, 1326, 1327 ... so approximately manufactured between 1907 and 1909.

Cheers, SS 

SS

Thank you for this additional information on the dates.

Best regards Sepoy

 

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On 24/08/2023 at 08:51, shippingsteel said:

What Assaf said except the dates stamped are 1325, 1326, 1327 ... so approximately manufactured between 1907 and 1909.

Cheers, SS 

Thank you,

i keep getting confused between 5 and 0.

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  • 1 month later...
On 25/08/2023 at 20:24, assafx said:

Thank you,

i keep getting confused between 5 and 0.

Many of us do!

Note to Sepoy, There were three calendars in use in the late Ottoman Empire, the normal one being the regular Islamic one, but there was also a type of 'commercial one' used when working with other countries, which tried to match the solar and lunar years. So, there is no way of matching Ottoman years with 'our' years unless you know the months involved. Thus, we talk of the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, from August 1877-January 1878, but Osmanli and many modern Turkish historians call it the ‘93 Harbi’, the ‘war of ‘93’, as it coincided with the Islamic year of 1293....

Trajan

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5 hours ago, trajan said:

Many of us do!

Note to Sepoy, There were three calendars in use in the late Ottoman Empire, the normal one being the regular Islamic one, but there was also a type of 'commercial one' used when working with other countries, which tried to match the solar and lunar years. So, there is no way of matching Ottoman years with 'our' years unless you know the months involved. Thus, we talk of the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, from August 1877-January 1878, but Osmanli and many modern Turkish historians call it the ‘93 Harbi’, the ‘war of ‘93’, as it coincided with the Islamic year of 1293....

Trajan

Trajan

Thank you for the update regarding the three calendars in use during the late Ottoman Empire! It might have caused a few problems when making a Doctors appointment :D.
In fact, I think our local Doctor has adopted them!!!!!

Cheers

Sepoy

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Fortunately my doctor here uses the 'Western' system but I was dumbfounded by a new colleague who dates her notes this way - 2023-10-06.... They are from Czechia - is it a Czech thing? They also use those '*******' terms BCE and CE, but that is another issue... :angry:

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15 hours ago, trajan said:

2023-10-06

Thats usual practice in Japan.

I have taken to using that method for saving copies of letters & notes for work correspondence.

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Usual practice in Europe that time format Year/Month/day  or D/M/Y that is around all of the European countries, only UK ? and USA are different in the manner that Month is on other position probably. M/D/Y.

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