A few Ottoman Cartridges

[trajan]

A couple of deperadoes there! Yes, I suspect the Turkish irregulars of one form or another were around in all sorts of places, but I think mainly in home regions.  Note thought that these two have - I think - Mausers! Most of the regionally-recruited forces seem to have held onto their local dress as with these two, so perhaps the ones in your second post are reservists? Scraping the barrel? Except that by March 1917 when the photograph was taken (allegedly),  the Germans were already shipping over spare Gew 88 and 98's!  Well, we could go on and on with a discussion of exactly who those men were but the main point is that men in Ottoman military service whether we class them as soldiers or as irregulars were using these Gras! And so once again archaeology leads to a nice reminder that the books aint always right!

 

Julian

Edited 11 June , 2018 by trajan

[assafx]

In this case we were lucky enough to find two photographs.

otherwise like many cases with archeological finds you would argue about their interpretation forever

 

BTW ken said that he based the 25,000it on his old book but it will take some time to find the original reference.

[michaeldr]

22 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Forgot to crefit the last one - and can't find where I got it from, perhaps Chris Flaherty! Others PC's of mine

 

Way outside any scope of knowledge of mine, but nevertheless a fascinating thread - thanks

I can't help with an exact credit for the above picture, but it is familiar, having been used in books by both Ulrichsen and Woodward I believe (and possibly Erickson?)

Some Ottoman rifles, cartridges, bayonets etc which may be of interest are also to be seen here in this photograph from the Gallipoli campaign 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205248549

 

 

 

[shippingsteel]

44 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Some Ottoman rifles, cartridges, bayonets etc which may be of interest are also to be seen here in this photograph from the Gallipoli campaign 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205248549

 

Yes a veritable treasure trove of captured rifles and ammunition there ... enough pristine Turkish Mausers to make a collector weep.!  The rifles are a mixture of the common Turkish Mausers of the GW, the M1890 with protruding magazine, and the M1893 with the flush magazine, both featuring the "export Mauser" bayonet lug sited under the nosecap.

 

The chap on the right is sizing up a M1890 Mauser rifle, while the chap on the left holds the M1890 sword-bayonet which attaches to that rifle. Also a couple of British P1888 bayonets, one in the foreground in scabbard, with another in centre resting alongside the log. Plus plenty of ammo.!

 

Edited 12 June , 2018 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

Well spotted SS!

 

The one rifle I do like is the one with the shot-off bayonet (below)!

 

The recent Anzac area survey found something similar (find reference A 300), a Turkish bayonet wrongly identified as a M.1903 when it is a M.1890, missing most of its blade which I thought must have resulted from corroson, but perhaps shrapnel / snapping-off damage as with this one?  

 

 

[michaeldr]

31 minutes ago, trajan said:

The one rifle I do like is the one with the shot-off bayonet (below)!

The recent Anzac area survey found something similar (find reference A 300), a Turkish bayonet wrongly identified as a M.1903 when it is a M.1890, missing most of its blade which I thought must have resulted from corroson, but perhaps shrapnel / snapping-off damage as with this one?  

 

Julian,

 

The text on page 170 (Anzac Battlefield - a Gallipoli landscape of war and memory) offers another theory

"... the blade of the bayonet had become embedded in the base of a tree and had snapped in two as the tree grew."

However, the damage/remains are indeed remarkably similar to the one you point out in the IWM photograph

[trajan]

Thanks for the correction! I had the photograph on file but should have checked the book caption!

 

Julian

[shippingsteel]

On 11/06/2018 at 17:16, trajan said:

However, given that the GB MI report of 1916 mentions that the Winchesters and Remingtons dating from the 1870's were still in Ottoman service then (they were declared obsolete in an Ottoman inventory of 1886/1887!), as well as the P-M Rifles and these apparent 'Martini-Henry' clones, then I somehow doubt that the Gras 1874 carbine in its various forms was a regular service weapon.

 

On 11/06/2018 at 19:25, trajan said:

I find it odd otherwise that the well-informed GB MI report for 1916 (which from my research is pretty accurate regarding numbers and types of rifles to hand by 1916) does not mention them, especially as it mentions those Remingtons and Winchesters!

 

On 11/06/2018 at 21:52, assafx said:

The amount of Winchesters and Remingtons that the Turks had, was large enough to be noticed by the intelligence. How many Gras were taken from the Greek? i doubt it passed 10,000 guns.

 

Just to add a footnote here to help Assafx with his research, he is absolutely correct in questioning the veracity of the "much vaunted" British Military Intelligence report which obviously based much of its assumptions on historical weapons contracts which were common knowledge at the time. Reminds me of that old soldiers joke that "Military Intelligence is an Oxymoron".! 

 

It comes as no surprise to me that the Ottoman's Gras rifles were not mentioned in that report, as being sourced via captured "war booty" from the recent Balkan Wars they would not appear on any available contract documentation known to the British. On the other hand there WERE other smaller blocks of Ottoman weapons that should have appeared on their "list" but didn't. Their failure to mention any of these more recent smaller contracts is particularly damning, and really puts the quality of their information into context.

 

As our friend Assafx intimated above, perhaps 10,000 captured Gras rifles would be insignificant enough to rate mention in the overall inventory of the Turkish Army, and this is true, but that number of weapons are obviously still significant enough to arm units of second-line troops in a weapons shortage, on a battlefront of less strategic importance. (As witnessed by our official German Photographer in the IWM images)

 

What the British Military Intelligence report FAILED to mention are known contracts with Waffenfabrik Mauser to supply M1908 Mauser carbines. These were based on the M1903 rifle system but of much shorter length, with a snub nose and no facility to attach a bayonet. From Waffenfabrik Mauser production records there were 15,000 cavalry carbines and 15,000 artillery carbines manufactured during 1908/09 and supplied to Turkey.

 

So if they can miss those sort of weapon numbers that were supplied by international contracts, then I have no doubt they can also very easily overlook the existence of captured "war booty" Gras rifles and carbines. After all in the big picture, the numbers of these would have indeed been insignificant. I hope this information is useful to Assafx in his ongoing studies of Ottoman military artefacts. See photos of the M1908 carbine in this thread linked courtesy of JPS.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?226984-Ottoman-Turk-Rifles-of-WWI

Edited 14 June , 2018 by shippingsteel

[assafx]

shippingsteel,

I was questioning it, because I'm aware of the limitations of any Intelligence organization.

It is important to remember, that the intelligence is limited to the reliability and the scope of its sources and then to the level and personal interpretation of the person/team who analyze this information.

Yet, this report is the only source available, at least that i know of, to offer some details about Ottoman arms and logistics.

Kress von Kressenstein wrote that at the beginning of the war, the army had much more recruits then anticipated and that they had problems supplying them with arms and uniforms. Artillery batteries were with only one load of ammunition and that the Ottoman Empire did not have the industry to support such a mobilization.

He also mentions the mixture of different weapons but not in any details. so the general picture of the intelligence report is quite accurate. 

This situation of too many recruits, not enough weapons, battlefield losses and until 1916 having no direct line from Germany to turkey meant that they had to use everything they had, even a small number of Gras.  Also the Palestine front was a neglected front in comparison with Galicia, Caucasus and Gallipoli,

 

This is where the archeology together with historical sources comes into place.

I had to understand if the Gras rifles are part of that mixture or just some guns that were part of the local weapons market. in the past week i was able to prove it.

so this is the 9th type of weapon being used at this front together with 14 types of artillery guns and about 10 kinds of hand grenades. In my recent publication (in hebrew),

i gathered all this information and combined it with a very poor road and railway system.

Then i came to the conclusion, that the Ottoman army had little to eat or wear in this front because the high command had to choose between ammo or food and cloths.

this is then influenced the battle effectiveness of the troops and increased desertion rates.

 

Regarding the M1908, I think that there is a mention of them. If you'll look at Foreign Armies During 1909 (WO106/6186) page 84:

I think that they could not make the difference between M1903 and M1908. aside from shortening it to a carbine is there any major changes between these guns?

could it be that this model (1908) is a result of a more modern research?

 

Assaf

[trajan]

12 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

 

 

Just to add a footnote here to help Assafx with his research, he is absolutely correct in questioning the veracity of the "much vaunted" British Military Intelligence report which obviously based much of its assumptions on historical weapons contracts which were common knowledge at the time. Reminds me of that old soldiers joke that "Military Intelligence is an Oxymoron".! 

 

It comes as no surprise to me that the Ottoman's Gras rifles were not mentioned in that report, as being sourced via captured "war booty" from the recent Balkan Wars they would not appear on any available contract documentation known to the British. On the other hand there WERE other smaller blocks of Ottoman weapons that should have appeared on their "list" but didn't. Their failure to mention any of these more recent smaller contracts is particularly damning, and really puts the quality of their information into context.

 

As our friend Assafx intimated above, perhaps 10,000 captured Gras rifles would be insignificant enough to rate mention in the overall inventory of the Turkish Army, and this is true, but that number of weapons are obviously still significant enough to arm units of second-line troops in a weapons shortage, on a battlefront of less strategic importance. (As witnessed by our official German Photographer in the IWM images)

 

What the British Military Intelligence report FAILED to mention are known contracts with Waffenfabrik Mauser to supply M1908 Mauser carbines. These were based on the M1903 rifle system but of much shorter length, with a snub nose and no facility to attach a bayonet. From Waffenfabrik Mauser production records there were 15,000 cavalry carbines and 15,000 artillery carbines manufactured during 1908/09 and supplied to Turkey.

 

So if they can miss those sort of weapon numbers that were supplied by international contracts, then I have no doubt they can also very easily overlook the existence of captured "war booty" Gras rifles and carbines. After all in the big picture, the numbers of these would have indeed been insignificant. I hope this information is useful to Assafx in his ongoing studies of Ottoman military artefacts. See photos of the M1908 carbine in this thread linked courtesy of JPS.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?226984-Ottoman-Turk-Rifles-of-WWI

 

Just a quick reply - its is the Eid festival here but I'll try to get back later.

 

SS, The MI report of 1916 does say actually that: "Practically all the cavalry regiments are now armed with the new small-bore 7.65 Mauser carbine." .. "The carbine is of a similar pattern to the rifle... It is however eleven inches shorter, and weighs 2lbs. 6 ozs less."

 

We have been talking about infantry weaponry before...

 

Lots of photographs of course e.g. - from left to right, https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-turkish-cavalry-outside-gaza-palestine-ww1-66158771.html https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/photo/ottoman-cavalry  https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/419/88/large_000000.jpg

 

Happy Eid Al-Fitr!

 

Trajan

[assafx]

the first image should be M1888 carbine if i'm not mistaken

[pierssc]

Hi - I’ve just noticed this thread and for what it is worth, I might mention that my RNR grandfather brought back a Gras Cavalry carbine as a war trophy from the Eastern Med.  He was based in Alexandria and Famagusta (Cyprus) and commanded a couple of small vessels involved in intelligence work on the coasts of Asia Minor, Syria and Palestine, dropping and picking up agents etc.  Its general appearance suggests that whoever had it wasn’t part of any regular force.  It is in pretty poor condition - someone has put several metal round-headed studs into the butt for some reason, and it is broken across the small of the stock - which someone has tried to repair by tacking steel strips round it, cut from an embossed container of some kind as there is (latin) script on it.  I think I reckoned it might have been a paraffin container.  I don’t recall any Ottoman script anywhere.  Unfortunately history does not relate how he acquired it - other than my grandmother told me that he had got it from the Turks - so It might have been brought aboard by someone they wrre picking up anywhere along the coast, he could have acquired it in one of the coastal towns (he commanded a supply convoy supporting the army advancing up the coast right at the end of the war, if I recall correctly unloading at Jaffa, Sidon and Beirut) or he might just have bought it in the bazaar!

 

Apologies for this digression but your discussion has been useful to me in confirming that there were other Gras in the region!

 

Piers

 

 

 

 

[trajan]

15 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

... Just to add a footnote here to help Assafx with his research...

 

 

A chance to reply more fully to your post no. 83! Having a nephew who is a captain in MI, well he would simply reply to that oxymoron business how that is a typical comment by people who lack the intelligence to be in the lowest ranks of the military but sadly rise often to the top! His point being that MI provides the intelligence but does not make the decisions never mind the wisdom on how to use it… I.e., the WMD in Iraq fiasco…But yes, a well-known old soldiers joke!

 

1) I certainly cannot agree that GB MI was working essentially from ‘common knowledge’ about known military contracts in assessing Ottoman weaponry! Ottoman armoury records and official reports for 1887 indicate that then there were 450,000 ‘Martini’ rifles of all types in store, i.e., including surviving P-M rifles and their own Istanbul-clones, a number which is not too far off the estimate in the MI report of 1916 that there were “perhaps 500,000” ‘Martini’s’ available in 1914. Indeed, the MI of 1916 goes further in indicating that 370,000 of these mixed ‘Martini’s (stirred, not shaken please!) were P-M rifles! This would not be known from contracts (600,000 commisioned in 1872, uncertain number lost in 1877-1878) – this is from ‘in-house’ not public records. And if working from contract numbers - how come the GB MI of 1916 gives a figure of "about 500,000" Mauser 7.65 rifles - which is out by about 200,000? And why do they assume that all regular uinits used the Model 1903 with 'the short bayonet' when that is patently not the case?

 

 2) There is a need to be aware that these Gras carbines Assafx has so diligently tracked down in Ottoman use do not have to be war booty. There are Ottoman records referring to the supply of Gras firearms to various Armenian groups around the time - e.g, in about 1911, one group of Armenians received allegedly “14 bin Yunan grasa tüfeği, 1 milyondan fazla mermi”. No I don’t know what happened to these! My suspicion? Captured and went in Jandarma service, which would help this matter of why there are Osmanlica marked Gras cartridge cases…. But NOT army service, which is what GB MI were specifically concerned with.

 

3) I have dealt with the matter of the alleged failure of GB MI of 1916 to mention the Mauser carbines above. They did know about these... The figure of 30,000 carbines supplied to Turkey in 1908/09 from Mauser records you give is spot-on. As far as I am able to determine from my own research the total numbers of Mauser carbines delivered were - in 1887, 4000, M.1887 in 9.5 mm; in 1895, 5 (yes, five!) M.1893 in 7.65 mm; in 1908 15,000 M.1905 in 7,65 mm; and in 1909 a further 15,000 M.1905 7.65 mm, as you note. Not certain without looking into other notes about any 1890 carbines - do you know?

 

4) Thanks for the link you posted above - but the year is 1326 so hardly a M.1905 carbine!

 

Happy Eid!

 

Trajan

[trajan]

10 hours ago, assafx said:

... was questioning it, because I'm aware of the limitations of any Intelligence organization. It is important to remember, that the intelligence is limited to the reliability and the scope of its sources and then to the level and personal interpretation of the person/team who analyze this information. ... This situation of too many recruits, not enough weapons, battlefield losses and until 1916 having no direct line from Germany to turkey meant that they had to use everything they had, even a small number of Gras.  Also the Palestine front was a neglected front in comparison with Galicia, Caucasus and Gallipoli...  Regarding the M1908, I think that there is a mention of them. If you'll look at Foreign Armies During 1909 (WO106/6186) page 84:

I think that they could not make the difference between M1903 and M1908. aside from shortening it to a carbine is there any major changes between these guns?

could it be that this model (1908) is a result of a more modern research?

 

On the first point - exactly! Intelligence is one thing, the ability to use it is another...

 

On the second point - yes, any Gras around would be used where necessary - BUT never forget the problem of ammunition supply, one of the reasons the Ottoman regular army was using essentially Mausers and P-M Rifles chambered for 7.65; the suggestion to convert the P-M Rifles to this calibre for that reason was in fact made as early as 1891/1892, but not taken up until 1908... (There is a wonderful anecdote incidentally about a Russian regiment that captured some P-M Rifles after Plevna and one general wanted to arm a regiment with these on account of their range, etc. - but was refused permission because of potential problems with ammunition supply) So, as I have always said, no problem with these Gras being used by irregular forces, who were not likely to be involved in full-scale combat, but I don't really see them as a weapon in regular use by front-line troops.

 

Your third point confirms GB MI of 1916 - they did know about these carbines. And it is pretty up-to-date... As far as I can determine (but SS might know better - and I have never studied this matter in any detail) the original order was made 27th May 1908, confirmed 30 June 1908, and sealed 05 August 1908 - by the Hüber brothers in Constantinople

 

You mean what is difference between M1903 rifle and M1908 carbine apart from shortening? Well, I'll let SS sort that one out! Note, though, that as far as I understand it, the development of the German M.98 carbine went through two stages, the first model being introduced in 1906, the second longer model - and 'final' version - in 1908 (1909 in Bavaria).

 

If you mean the designation 'Model 1903' for the carbine delivered in 1908/1909 is a neologism, well, I have seen these termed the M.1905 in some places (e.g., the JPS link provided by SS above!) I need to get back to German sources, if time permits...

 

3 hours ago, assafx said:

the first image should be M1888 carbine if i'm not mistaken

 

Hmmm. Don't know... The distinguishing feature on these from the other carbines looks to me to be the shape of the butt-stock, not visible here - except that the bolt on the 1887/8 is forward of the trigger guard, and it is above the front of this in the M.1908. Over to SS or 4G on this matter!

 

Julian

[trajan]

2 hours ago, pierssc said:

... my RNR grandfather brought back a Gras Cavalry carbine as a war trophy from the Eastern Med.... Its general appearance suggests that whoever had it wasn’t part of any regular force.  It is in pretty poor condition - someone has put several metal round-headed studs into the butt for some reason, and it is broken across the small of the stock - which someone has tried to repair by tacking steel strips round it, cut from an embossed container of some kind as there is (latin) script on it. ... 

 

Piers, this sounds an interesting item so please do post a picture when and if you can! The practice of decorating butt-stocks with round-headed studs was an Arab fashion - I am racking my brains right now for a reference to this in - I think - a thesis on contemporary documentary sources about weapons supply to the Arabian peninsula in the late 19th and early  20th century and if I remember I'll come back on this matter!

[assafx]

On a second look, my mistake with the M1888. yes they seem to be 1908.

 

don't know if you're celebrating or not but Mubarak al Eid.

Edited 15 June , 2018 by assafx

[pierssc]

Thank you Julian.  Hope these are of interest. Serial 63897, made at Chatellerault.  Looking at the additional metalwork, perhaps it was a French repair - I can make out "Fils" and "Raffine" so it sounds as if the donor can was refined something!  I said I thought it was a Cavalry Carbine - having looked at S^S's post it looks more like the artillery musketoon but there is no sign of there ever having been a bayonet lug.  It otherwise looks similar to the Gras in your photo of Hekimoğlu in post #54. 

[trajan]

Thanks - a strange thing of beauty in its own way! 

 

I found the quote I was thinking of, a description of how one Arab tribe had treated its Martini-Henry's as seen in 1912:

 

No sooner has an Arab taken possession of such a carbine than he sets about making alterations. As a result it assumes a distinctly Arab character, while at the same time it loses most of its value as a firearm. First and formost the backsight an offense to the Arab's sense of beauty - is knocked off, the foresight goes the same way, and where the sights have been, strips of tin or brass are bound round the barrel and kept polished. After thus making short work of the means of sighting, the Arab pursues the process of embellishment by paring as much wood as ever he can off the weapon, to make it lighter, and after the stock has finally assumed its form, he studs it with innumerable little nails with brass heads disposed in various patterns. That done, the formidable arm is put safely in the leathern holster, which has its place on the camel saddle behind the rider. 

 

Yes, it does like part of a something-or-other can used for a repair - hopefully 4G will check in and comment on the rifle, while Assafx might know of local museum parallels. I have seen one Peabody-Martini that was heavily decorated in the manner described and your Gras does have that 'Arabised' look about it.

 

Julian

[assafx]

what an interesting example.

This might be a local repair but most likely an ornament that the local Arabs liked to put on their guns (as mentioned above).

I have an example of an engraved pistol somewhere and will look later for the photograph.

 

[trajan]

15 hours ago, assafx said:

On a second look, my mistake with the M1888. yes they seem to be 1908.

 

don't know if you're celebrating or not but Mubarak al Eid.

 

Yes, could be M.1908 - and I have found out something more about these in German and Turkish sources which I'll look over later.

 

As for Eid - well, ma-in-law is here and so yesterday I was ordered back from my office for a late family breakfast instead of catching up with things, so treated myself to a Russianised tomato juice () along with the other festive fare! 

[trajan]

17 hours ago, trajan said:

... 

3) I have dealt with the matter of the alleged failure of GB MI of 1916 to mention the Mauser carbines above. They did know about these... The figure of 30,000 carbines supplied to Turkey in 1908/09 from Mauser records you give is spot-on. As far as I am able to determine from my own research the total numbers of Mauser carbines delivered were - in 1887, 4000, M.1887 in 9.5 mm; in 1895, 5 (yes, five!) M.1893 in 7.65 mm; in 1908 15,000 M.1905 in 7,65 mm; and in 1909 a further 15,000 M.1905 7.65 mm, as you note. Not certain without looking into other notes about any 1890 carbines - do you know?

 

 

Problem with wider family around during festive ocassions is constant interuptions... 

 

But a necessary correcion to the above - one German source (August Gaiser at Waffenfabrik) states that the 4000 M.1887 carbines in 9.5 mm were "gefertigt von 19 Januar 1890 bis 29 Dezember 1890" so these would have arrived I guess in 1891.

 

Trajan 

[trajan]

18 hours ago, trajan said:

... 

3) I have dealt with the matter of the alleged failure of GB MI of 1916 to mention the Mauser carbines above. They did know about these... The figure of 30,000 carbines supplied to Turkey in 1908/09 from Mauser records you give is spot-on. As far as I am able to determine from my own research the total numbers of Mauser carbines delivered were - in 1887, 4000, M.1887 in 9.5 mm; in 1895, 5 (yes, five!) M.1893 in 7.65 mm; in 1908 15,000 M.1905 in 7,65 mm; and in 1909 a further 15,000 M.1905 7.65 mm, as you note. Not certain without looking into other notes about any 1890 carbines - do you know?

 

 

Interesting... It looks like the 'M.1905' designation might be a term introduced by Olson for what we know and what should be correctly described as the M.1908... I.e., there was no M.1905? 

 

So where does this M.05 designation come from? As far as I can determine - and SS should be commenting here as he has the Mauser figures - production of the original M.98 carbine, introduced into selective service in 1900/1901, was discontinued in January 1905, while its successor (with the stacking hook and bayonet bar), aka the Kar.98 AZ (I think!), was commissioned for service use in 1908/1909, with Danzig and Erfurt, for example, making between 118-120 a day in 1909-1910. 

 

SS referred above to 

On 15/06/2018 at 00:45, shippingsteel said:

M1908 Mauser carbines. These were based on the M1903 rifle system but of much shorter length, with a snub nose and no facility to attach a bayonet.

 

(Emphasis added) So, are these Turkish M.08's the discontinued forebear of the actual Kar.98 AZ?

 

All very odd to me - but there again I would not claim to be a rifle bod never mind a Mauser specialist! 

[assafx]

Piers ,

as you can see, after about 70 years in the ground there are still engraving above and behind the trigger area.

 

If i remember correctly there are a few flintlock rifles and swords with the kind of decorations that trajan mentioned before in the museum for Islamic art in Jerusalem (http://www.islamicart.co.il/english/) this tradition, as we can see continued into the 20th century.

 

Assaf

Edited 16 June , 2018 by assafx

[trajan]

Going off-topic a bit - but google "decorated martini-henry" and see what comes up! 

[trajan]

And for your delectation, a postcard I picked up this weekend. He looks to have a fez, but probably a kalpak, and looks to have an M.1890 rifle with fixed bayonet (but I am happy to be corrected), and collar insignia of the type dropped after 1909 reading, I think - 2nd regiment 11th company,

 

But look at those bandoliers and he belt, and if I am not mistaken, two types of bullets in them! Pointed in the upper and rounded in the belt 

Edited 12 October , 2018 by trajan