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Remembered Today:

A few Ottoman Cartridges


assafx

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18 hours ago, trajan said:

 

It is always nice to come back to an old thread and up date it!

 

The conversions were done using 200,000 barrels and 150,000 new sights ordered from OEWG, also a new extractor system which meant shortening the chamber. The contract with OEWG was from October 1910 and March 1911, the back of the chamber being marked with a new serial from which I have learnt that at least 173,778 P-M's were converted this way. Oddly enought, though, that serial number is on a rifle with the year mark 1330 (13th March 1914/12th March 1915), but I also have on record a rifle with a later year mark, 1331 (1915/1916) with a lower serial - 164,236... Note incidentally, the photo on the left (1328) shows the strengthening plates added to the the back of the chamber on the later examples of the conversions to secure the hinge pin, this being absent on the other example (1327).

 

For those who like obscure information, the Osmanlica text reads "‘Tüfenk Fabrikası / İstanbul / Sene – 1327' or '1328', etc., i.e., ‘Rifle Factory, Istanbul, year 1327’ or '1328'. etc. (On a side note, I had always throught that 'Istanbul' came into use only after 1923/25 or so, but as you can see it is used here and also on the Ottoman-made muzzle caps produced in 1328 for their Mauser rifles.) 

 

Trajan

This is very interesting.

If i remember correctly the conversion process, according to the British intelligence, was about 100-150 rifles a day.

now, if they used all their barrels, worked efficiently and did not rest, even for a single day, this whole process should have been taken around 3.5-4 years to complete.

This also leaves us with a few hundred thousands rifles that weren't converted and might have been still used in the battlefield.

 

Assaf

 

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50 minutes ago, assafx said:

I was so busy looking at the rifle that i forgot to look at the rest of rephotograph.

I believe that the German on the right seems to be standing next to a camera on a tripod.

They are in the process of transferring supply from one train to another my guess is that one of them should be narrow gauge leading to our area.

What can you tell me about Irregular soldiers during the war?

Kress von kressenstein tell that in late 1914 the army in syria was short of rifles and even used old Remington and Winchester repeating rifles and in some cases pistols.

Could it be that regular units, even in 1917 used Gras?

 

Assaf

 

 

A quick reply before leaving for work.

 

I wondered it it was a camarha also!

 

Good point on transferring from wider to narrower guage - so could be in Syria / Palestine? Although the pass does look rather like the Cilician Gates...

 

Not too hot on these irregulars - came from all areas (most notorious being the Kurds and Laz), and some could be ex-Fedais irregulars from the Balkan Wars - so the Gras would/could be a 'bring-back' of one of those guys.

 

The Remingtons arrived in the Ottoman Empire with a contingent of Egyptian troops sent to help out during the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish war. The Winchesters were bought in 1872. I think both were officially declared obsolete by the Ottoman armoury officials in 1887, with the adoption of the Turkish Model 1887 Mauser.

 

I have never come across any reference even hinting at the use of the Gras by the regular army. In Balkans Wars, P-M rifles, and Sniders, yes, but all Ottoman trade for rifles in the 1860's was with GB and then USA for Sniders (Enfields and Springfields); then Winchesters in 1872+; then P-M in 1874-1880. The only French (and Belgan) rifles I have come across in Ottoman service were some used by elite units in tne Crimean War - can't remember what type right now, but firinging a Minie Ball.

 

Will be back on line later.

 

Must dash

 

Julian.

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3 hours ago, assafx said:

... If i remember correctly the conversion process, according to the British intelligence, was about 100-150 rifles a day. ... this whole process should have been taken around 3.5-4 years to complete. ... This also leaves us with a few hundred thousands rifles that weren't converted and might have been still used in the battlefield.

 

 

From memory, 605,707 P-M rifles were delivered to Constantinople 1874-1880 - 600,000 to the army, 5,000 to the Valide Sultan, the rest to private buyers. At home somewhere I have the figures for PM in the armouries after the 1877-1878 war, I think around 400,000. Now here comes the mystery part... You will recall that British MI report both Peabody- and Martini-Henry's in use by the Ottoman army, and they indicate that 370,000 of these dated to the 1877-1878 war and so have to be PM rifles. But what about the Martin-Henry's? As far as I have been able to discover, none were ever supplied by Britain to the Ottoman Empire, but from 1881-1890, the Rifle Factory at Constantinople were making 'clones' of these - and of Winchesters and Remingtons! The source is the Naval attache to the Ottoman Empire at the time, so that explains, I think, these mysterious 'Martini-Henry's'. But none of these 'clones' seem to have been converted - all of the examples I know of are P-M rifles.   

 

2 hours ago, trajan said:

 

... I have never come across any reference even hinting at the use of the Gras by the regular army. In Balkans Wars, P-M rifles, and Sniders, yes, but all Ottoman trade for rifles in the 1860's was with GB and then USA for Sniders (Enfields and Springfields); then Winchesters in 1872+; then P-M in 1874-1880. The only French (and Belgian) rifles I have come across in Ottoman service were some used by elite units in the Crimean War - can't remember what type right now, but firing a Minie Ball.

 

(Corrected spelling errors!)

 

OK, add, of course, Mausers, to those used in the Balkans Wars, but note that one source reports how very few of these were actually issued from the armouries in times for these - there is a report that nine out of ten divisions in the Greco-Turkic War of 1897 were armed with Mausers, while during the Balkan Wars it was noted that some Ottoman soldiers had to be trained in the use of the bolt-action Mauser... 

 

Julian

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Coming back to irregulars and the 'Gras' problem. This is a photograph well known over here that shows the body of a very famous brigand named Hekimoğlu who features in a famous song (Hekimoğlu Türküsü) which talks of his 'Aynali Martini' - the 'Mirrored Martini'. He was cornered and died in a firefight with the Jandarma on the 26th April 1913, and he is "featured" on Wikipedia. Of course I knew of the photograph because of the P-M connection - and had until just now forgotten that his dead 'disciple' Mehmet or Osman haswhat looks to be a 'Gras' Mousqueton... So, they were around in Ottoman lands in 1913, and if they were around I can see why somebody would be making Gras cartridges with Osmanlica script...

 

 

Turkish Peabody-Martini & French  Gras.jpg

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4 hours ago, trajan said:

Coming back to irregulars and the 'Gras' problem. This is a photograph well known over here that shows the body of a very famous brigand named Hekimoğlu who features in a famous song (Hekimoğlu Türküsü) which talks of his 'Aynali Martini' - the 'Mirrored Martini'. He was cornered and died in a firefight with the Jandarma on the 26th April 1913, and he is "featured" on Wikipedia. Of course I knew of the photograph because of the P-M connection - and had until just now forgotten that his dead 'disciple' Mehmet or Osman haswhat looks to be a 'Gras' Mousqueton... So, they were around in Ottoman lands in 1913, and if they were around I can see why somebody would be making Gras cartridges with Osmanlica script...

 

 

What an image.

I guess there were enough Greek guns to go around and arm a few thousand men.

My question regarding the Irregulars is a tough one since we can't tell by the find itself who used it. 

still they are fairly spread out around israel and three out of five came from an archeological context (Jerusalem, eshataol and Jaffa).

I'm not even sure how much can we tell from history sources about Irregulars in the Palestine front.

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On 04/06/2018 at 12:09, trajan said:

From memory, 605,707 P-M rifles were delivered to Constantinople 1874-1880 - 600,000 to the army, 5,000 to the Valide Sultan, the rest to private buyers. At home somewhere I have the figures for PM in the armouries after the 1877-1878 war, I think around 400,000. Now here comes the mystery part... You will recall that British MI report both Peabody- and Martini-Henry's in use by the Ottoman army, and they indicate that 370,000 of these dated to the 1877-1878 war and so have to be PM rifles. But what about the Martin-Henry's? As far as I have been able to discover, none were ever supplied by Britain to the Ottoman Empire, but from 1881-1890, the Rifle Factory at Constantinople were making 'clones' of these - and of Winchesters and Remingtons! The source is the Naval attache to the Ottoman Empire at the time, so that explains, I think, these mysterious 'Martini-Henry's'. But none of these 'clones' seem to have been converted - all of the examples I know of are P-M rifles.   

 

I only have one M-H case that was found in the Negev and no other finds that i know of, that might suggest the use of clones or one of the original M-H rifles.

I wonder if the clones were considered low quality and that is why there was no upgrade process.

 

 

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These 'clones' do present a problem. The converted P-M rifles all have a distinctive lug in front of the foresight, so that they can take a socket bayonet, and as I observed earlier (I think!), only genuine P-M ones were converted to the Mauser format - to the best of my knowledge, but I am happy to be corrected if somebody knows better. So, the clones will be full length rifles (possibly some carbines also?) at the standard 45 calibre, but for (I would expect) the Peabody-Martini cartridge, which is narrower than the GB one. But other than that I have no idea what the clones may have looked like or how they might be marked!

Edited by trajan
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I stumbled upon this image:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330432

If i'm not mistaken, they seem to be Irregulars and it seems as if the guy on the left is with a Gras and the rest are using other rifles.

on a side note, it looks also as if they were just parying or about the pray when the shot was taken.

 

large_000000.jpg

Edited by assafx
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42 minutes ago, assafx said:

I stumbled upon this image:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330432

If i'm not mistaken, they seem to be Irregulars and it seems as if the guy on the left is with a Gras and the rest are using other rifles.

on a side note, it looks also as if they were just parying or about the pray when the shot was taken.

 

large_000000.jpg

 

Excellent find! Certainly 'irregulars' although three are wearing (?a version of?) the army bashlik, but certainly Ottoman not uniforms. Also, Ottoman regular army (and Jandarma) had ammunition pouches.

 

I doubt if they are about to pray: years of using that praying postion meant that it came naturally when resting or before a meal, and the others are not lined up.

 

Now, those rifles - isn't that at least one more Gras in the stack of four? And is that also a older percussion cap external hammer one there, the darker one on the right, with light reflecting of the lock plate? Soes it sat where and when taken???

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2 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Excellent find! Certainly 'irregulars' although three are wearing (?a version of?) the army bashlik, but certainly Ottoman not uniforms. Also, Ottoman regular army (and Jandarma) had ammunition pouches.

 

I doubt if they are about to pray: years of using that praying postion meant that it came naturally when resting or before a meal, and the others are not lined up.

 

Now, those rifles - isn't that at least one more Gras in the stack of four? And is that also a older percussion cap external hammer one there, the darker one on the right, with light reflecting of the lock plate? Soes it sat where and when taken???

Q 86402 THE TURKISH ARMY IN THE SINAI AND PALESTINE CAMPAIGN, 1915-1918

Object description

Turkish troops camping near Jerusalem, March 1917.
 
Amazing ha?i did the same search 4 times by now and now it's the first time it caught my eye.
it is appear as if there's another Gras in the stack. i can't tell much about the second rifle, since it's too blurry when i magnify the photograph. it looks quite modern to me.
Even though they are Irregulars,  this might be a great example of the mess in the Turkish army. a unit with more then one weapon at hand is quite a logistical nightmare.
 
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These weapons in the IWM photo are a mixture of Greek M1874 Gras Carbines. The one slung by the soldier on the left is a Gras Cavalry Carbine with another in the centre of the piled rifles. The remaining weapons are all a Gras Gendarmerie Carbine variation which are very similar but capable of attaching a bayonet. They would have all used the same 11mm x 59R ammunition.

 

You can tell the difference by the way the slings are attached, the number of forestock/barrel bands and the presence of bayonet lugs.

See the image linked below from an interesting article written by John Sheahan (JPS)

https://gunsmagazine.com/weapons-of-the-greco-turkish-war/

The Cavalry Carbine is shown third from the top, while the Gendarmerie Carbine is fourth from the top.

 

greece2.jpg

 

PS. The IWM image posted above by Assaf is "zoomable" on the IWM site, which allows for a better view of the detail. :)

Edited by shippingsteel
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16 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

These weapons in the IWM photo are a mixture of Greek M1874 Gras Carbines. The one slung by the soldier on the left is a Gras Cavalry Carbine with another in the centre of the piled rifles. The remaining weapons are all a Gras Gendarmerie Carbine variation which are very similar but capable of attaching a bayonet. They would have all used the same 11mm x 59R ammunition.

 

Well done SS on going thet bit further!

 

Now, who do those rifles belong to? Who are the chappies in the photograph?

 

None are obviously and clearly regular Ottoman soldiers - from the Nizam. The most obviously 'soldiery' chappies are the group around the stacked rifles plus the kneeling one. But
those ammunition belts don't fit with the Nizam, for a start, although they look to be wearing wear bashliks, the Ottoman sun-hat, as it were, and the one chappie putting his coat on has a kalpak. So, they have bits of Ottoman uniform - headgear - but not the official get-up, so are they reserves? I don't know, but I doubt it. I reckon they are Fedais, ex-Balkan war men who have 'volunteered for the duration'. The GB MI report for 1916 mentions the fact that these guys were around (although they had shortened P-M in the Balkan Wars). BUT, nowhere in the Ottoman records known to me or in the GB MI report is there any mention of Gras rifles as a service issue... 

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18 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Well done SS on going thet bit further!

 

Now, who do those rifles belong to? Who are the chappies in the photograph?

 

None are obviously and clearly regular Ottoman soldiers - from the Nizam. The most obviously 'soldiery' chappies are the group around the stacked rifles plus the kneeling one. But
those ammunition belts don't fit with the Nizam, for a start, although they look to be wearing wear bashliks, the Ottoman sun-hat, as it were, and the one chappie putting his coat on has a kalpak. So, they have bits of Ottoman uniform - headgear - but not the official get-up, so are they reserves? I don't know, but I doubt it. I reckon they are Fedais, ex-Balkan war men who have 'volunteered for the duration'. The GB MI report for 1916 mentions the fact that these guys were around (although they had shortened P-M in the Balkan Wars). BUT, nowhere in the Ottoman records known to me or in the GB MI report is there any mention of Gras rifles as a service issue... 

 

Thank you S^S for the identification.

 

Ken Elks say that The Ottomans made 25,000 cartridges from the year 1331 (1915).

He suggests that they went for militia and police units.

The interesting question now, is why  the Ottoman empire should make  cartridges to Irregulars/ militia units?

my guess is, according to the finds here, that they had enough Greek cartridges so that's why they made only 25,000.

this is still a small number for a production line. maybe a clue to how desperate they were up until the fall of Serbia in 1916?

 

Assaf

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Does Ken say where he got those figures for the 25,000 cartridges from? 

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nope, i should ask him.

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The reason these Ottoman soldiers in the photograph look like "irregulars" is because that is exactly what they were - local men off the street. The large majority of the Ottoman army, especially later in the war, was made up of poorly trained conscripts ... most were unwillingly drafted. The Ottoman Empire did not have the money or the logistics support to fully clothe their men with uniforms, or arm them with modern weapons.

 

A while back I translated an interesting Paybook that was taken off a captured Turk soldier in the Sinai by an Australian Light Horse trooper. It provided details of the soldier and how he came to be in the Ottoman 8th Army Corps. Turns out this young man was a local Palestinian Arab. From the village of Deir as-Sudan near Jerusalem, he was a simple Farmer of about 20 years, when he was drafted into the army by drawing lots.

 

I can imagine that a lot of those young men pictured found themselves in the same position. Looks like some older NCOs are in charge of them. The reason these NCO types are wearing the ammunition belts/bandoliers instead of pouches is that these Gras rifles were only single loaders. So they fired one shot and then had to reload a new round from the belt. The 3 pocket German-style pouches were more suited to clip loading. 

 

I am glad that Assaf's diligent study and research has finally led him to photos that place Gras rifles in the hands of the Ottomans near his dig site. Mind you it has taken over 2 years to reach this point.! Might be a good time to go back to page 1 and re-read this thread to see how we did. :rolleyes:

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including the post where i said there is no image of turkish soldiers with a gras... i found two by now☺

 

was that paybook ever published?

 

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14 hours ago, assafx said:

nope, i should ask him.

 

Please do!

 

 

9 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The reason these Ottoman soldiers in the photograph look like "irregulars" is because that is exactly what they were - local men off the street. The large majority of the Ottoman army, especially later in the war, was made up of poorly trained conscripts ... most were unwillingly drafted. The Ottoman Empire did not have the money or the logistics support to fully clothe their men with uniforms, or arm them with modern weapons.

 

A while back I translated an interesting Paybook that was taken off a captured Turk soldier in the Sinai by an Australian Light Horse trooper. It provided details of the soldier and how he came to be in the Ottoman 8th Army Corps. Turns out this young man was a local Palestinian Arab. From the village of Deir as-Sudan near Jerusalem, he was a simple Farmer of about 20 years, when he was drafted into the army by drawing lots.

 

I can imagine that a lot of those young men pictured found themselves in the same position. Looks like some older NCOs are in charge of them. The reason these NCO types are wearing the ammunition belts/bandoliers instead of pouches is that these Gras rifles were only single loaders. So they fired one shot and then had to reload a new round from the belt. The 3 pocket German-style pouches were more suited to clip loading. 

 

I am glad that Assaf's diligent study and research has finally led him to photos that place Gras rifles in the hands of the Ottomans near his dig site. Mind you it has taken over 2 years to reach this point.! Might be a good time to go back to page 1 and re-read this thread to see how we did. :rolleyes:

 

Oh no doubt that we are looking at second-liners here, and the guys kneeling as if about to pray could well be draftees, and if so, one already has his kalabak/bashlik and tunic! 

 

The 'soldiers' are certainly a mixed bunch, with khakhi and blue uniforms, but no rank epaulettes, so narry a regular NCO there. I remain puzzled to an extent by the ammunition belts and lack of pouches, though, if these are regular soldiers.

 

I should have made myself clearer on these, by noting that in the "good old" pre-magazine rifle days the regular Ottoman soldier had a kind of belt and braces set up, with an across the chest fastener, and two large pouches on the belt for packs of single cartridges. And I have yet to see a regular Ottoman soldier (Nazim or Redif) with an ammuntion belt like these oones here, for single cartridges, and the only thing that I can think of that is similar are those belts used by the Hejaz army which have clip pockets, as it were, each holding a 5-round clip. These 'soldiers' are pretty certainly not Jandarma men either... I am leaning towards them being Fedais, or members of one of those many irregular units the Ottoman army dragged into the First World War. Could be rounding up draftees indeed!

 

I have also gone through some of Turkish books on the First World War here, with no success as of yet in finding more examples of these Gras. However, given that the GB MI report of 1916 mentions that the Winchesters and Remingtons dating from the 1870's were still in Ottoman service then (they were declared obsolete in an Ottoman inventory of 1886/1887!), as well as the P-M Rifles and these apparent 'Martini-Henry' clones, then I somehow doubt that the Gras 1874 carbine in its various forms was a regular service weapon.

 

Julian

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3 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Some more ammunition belts in service with the Ottoman Army linked below, from a similar source and also dated 1917.

The Palestinian front was the least resourced of all the Ottoman sectors during WW1, so nothing would surprise me here.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205306171

large_000000.jpg

 

Yes, those are the ones I was refering to in post 69 - "and the only thing that I can think of that is similar are those belts used by the Hejaz army which have clip pockets, as it were, each holding a 5-round clip." :thumbsup: Note also the regular army buckle on the belt of the chap to the right.

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It's probably something that is not readily apparent, but a single loading rifle requires ammunition in loose rounds for a single shot capacity. The more modern rifles had a clip loading capability that allowed rounds to be loaded in blocs of 5. Ammunition pouches were designed to hold these clips or chargers, Mills webbing in British service and leather Patronentaschen in German service. The problem is that these type of pouches and the clips they held were useless for single loading rifles.

 

The fact remains that there were still old-style single loading rifles in service with the Ottoman Army during WW1. The troops that were armed with these rifles would have been issued with ammunition belts instead of pouches to allow them to reload their single-loader rifles more efficiently. The Ottoman military would still have these type belts in store left over from when their main service rifle was the M1887 Mauser. This model Mauser had a tubular magazine that still required loading with single rounds. See the photo below (as posted in #54) of Turkish Jandarma armed with the M1887 rifle and sporting several single-round ammunition belts. Both the M1887 Mauser and M1874 Gras cartridges were found in the same location and are the subject of this thread ... this is no coincidence.

 

1081214960_TurkishPeabody-MartiniFrenchG

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Quite - and these are jandarma, as you recognise, the matter under discussion was whether those guys in Assaf's most recent IWM post were soldiers, in the sense of regular soldiers. And of course the guys lying down dead in the one above are brigands!

 

There are in fact - if you search further - photographs of regular soldiers using P-M rifles in WW1 who are wearing ammunition belts but the more usual practice for single-loaders like the PM was pouches in a belt and braces style as below, all showing P-M rifles, although as in the last one, the Fedais used ammunition belts in the Balkan War.

 

I have no problem with ammunition belts being around, 'soldiers', for the use of, or those Gras, for that matter, on the Syrio-Palestinain-Meopotamian front, but we are going very much off-topic with  agree/disagree over amunition belts! 

 

Quite simply, I am not entirely convinced the Gras was ever a part of the regular Ottoman army's inventory while not denying the possibility of its use if most especially by irregular units. I find it odd otherwise that the well-informed GB MI report for 1916 (which from my research is pretty accurate regarding numbers and types of rifles to hand by 1916) does not mention them, especially as it mentions those Remingtons and Winchesters! Yes, when circumstances demanded, the Ottoman army used what it could - we have covered the use of Mosin Nagants elsewhere, and I have seen photographs of M-N rifles in use by the Ottoman army on the Galician front -  so I think we can agree on at least that matter!:thumbsup:

 

JB PC 01.jpg

JB PC 02.jpg

JB-BS PC 01.jpg

ottomanmartini.jpg

 

Forgot to crefit the last one - and can't find where I got it from, perhaps Chris Flaherty! Others PC's of mine

Edited by trajan
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3 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Yes, those are the ones I was refering to in post 69 - "and the only thing that I can think of that is similar are those belts used by the Hejaz army which have clip pockets, as it were, each holding a 5-round clip." :thumbsup: Note also the regular army buckle on the belt of the chap to the right.

If i'm taking the head dress into account then in this image (that i already know of), they seem to be Arab recruits.

They are armed with GEW88 rifles which uses en block clips as far as i recall. maybe that's who they managed to keep it from falling down to earth.

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2 hours ago, trajan said:

Quite simply, I am not entirely convinced the Gras was ever a part of the regular Ottoman army's inventory while not denying the possibility of its use if most especially by irregular units. I find it odd otherwise that the well-informed GB MI report for 1916 (which from my research is pretty accurate regarding numbers and types of rifles to hand by 1916) does not mention them, especially as it mentions those Remingtons and Winchesters! Yes, when circumstances demanded, the Ottoman army used what it could - we have covered the use of Mosin Nagants elsewhere, and I have seen photographs of M-N rifles in use by the Ottoman army on the Galician front -  so I think we can agree on at least that matter!:thumbsup:

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The fact remains that there were still old-style single loading rifles in service with the Ottoman Army during WW1. The troops that were armed with these rifles would have been issued with ammunition belts instead of pouches to allow them to reload their single-loader rifles more efficiently.

The amount of Winchesters and Remingtons that the Turks had, was large enough to be noticed by the intelligence. How many Gras were taken from the Greek? i doubt it passed 10,000 guns.

i can understand why you think that they are irregulars, they are dressed "in between" some of the clothing looks like regular army and some are not.

about a year ago i found a book in Tel Aviv university" Uniforms and Equipment of the Central Powers in World War I: Volume Two: Germany and Ottoman Turkey. by Spencer Anthony Coil . i had to scan it in the xerox machine and here are two irregulars in comparison.

 

 

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The Palestinian front was the least resourced of all the Ottoman sectors during WW1, so nothing would surprise me here.

and right now that's my attitude too.

Kress von Kressenstein wrote about how he was happy to hear he's getting a veteran division from Galicia and was disappointed to discovered that most of the veterans and the good equipment were left there.

DOC191216-19122016125731-2-8.jpg

DOC191216-19122016125731-2-10.jpg

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