A few Ottoman Cartridges

[trajan]

Thanks Michael for putting up those scans. They show the details on form and format excellently. It is still a bit odd though that there are no clear photographs of Ottoman soldiers pre-1918 using the Gras,

For what it is worth I see a fair number of Greek marked 'Gras' bayonets over here (both in original and converted post 1914 form) but never one yet with Osmanli markings. So, allow me please some scepticism on this issue! It does need somebody to try putting the one in the other to see if there is a fit. E.G., if I recall correctly, the Bavarian re-chambered Werder 1869 - the Gew.69 apti. - would take the Reichspatronne but there were problems with ejecting the cartridge after firing because of its length? I freely admit to not knowing anything on these issues, of peripheral interest really - but I would welcome clarification as it seems that we have contrary "evidence" spinning around!

Julian

[shippingsteel]

to make things more interesting, we don't have any evidence in Israel of "Martini" ammunition that was manufactured in the Ottoman empire but we found Greek Gras in two separate sites both near roads or sites of WWI.

so how do we have no evidence of about 500,000 rifles but find two examples of captured Greek guns?

Assaf just a little info which may help clarify things a little. By WW1 the M1874 Peabody-Martini rifle was very obsolete, and the Turks had begun converting these old rifles into their standard calibre. This means they were upgrading them to utilise the more modern ammunition - there is evidence of this. So by WW1 any Peabody-Martini rifles still in Turkish service would most likely be using the more common and readily available Mauser ammunition in 7.65x53mm. Perhaps this fact does help to explain why you are not finding any of the older Peabody-Martini cartridges.?

Cheers, S>S

[Gew88/05]

Congratulations to Assaf, Shippingsteel, Julian, Michael, Khaki and all other participants in what has been and continues to be an informative thread. More please, somehow I missed all of the earlier posts before!

Edited 20 March , 2016 by Gew88/05

[assafx]

Assaf just a little info which may help clarify things a little. By WW1 the M1874 Peabody-Martini rifle was very obsolete, and the Turks had begun converting these old rifles into their standard calibre. This means they were upgrading them to utilise the more modern ammunition - there is evidence of this. So by WW1 any Peabody-Martini rifles still in Turkish service would most likely be using the more common and readily available Mauser ammunition in 7.65x53mm. Perhaps this fact does help to explain why you are not finding any of the older Peabody-Martini cartridges.?

Cheers, S>S

Michael and Shippingsteel,

all are valid points and i'll start with the conversion.

I know about this conversion.

If you'll look at: Great Britain. War Office. Intelligence. Handbook of the Turkish Army: Handbook Revised to Feb. 10, 1916 ; "Ordre De Bataille" Revised to Feb. 10, 1916.

you will see that on p57, they estimate a conversion of 100-150 guns a day.

this conversion also came as a result of ammunition shortage for the martini rifles (p11 where they estimate conversion of 150 per day).

on both notes they don't know when this process began and the writer adds that the weapons shortage is serious.

I am always suspicious when it comes to numbers on an intelligence report but if we'll assume that they are correct and that they worked around the clock (365 days), it gives us a number of 36,500-54,750 guns a year, out of 500,000 or more guns.

I estimate that this conversion was done until Jan 1916, where the first shipment of GW88 and GW98 arrives from Germany.

This weapon shortage and the insufficient conversion rate points us both ways, to the usage of a captured Gras or to the use of their ammunition on Martini rifles.

The few Martini cartridges found in here (one in a messy 1917 context) were made in England.

the Ottomans already making 7.65mm and 1887 Turkish Mauser ammo, so why not martini (400,000 after conversion and losses) and only Gras?

So that's put us again in the only solution that i can think of, we need to test the theory somehow on real guns (even without firing) and i won't be surprised if it will fit or work.

I say so after seeing evidence of firing a roughly converter 0.303 from a mauser (posted in the forum a few years back).

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

Assaf, these conversions of the Peabody-Martini rifles were being done in Istanbul at least as early as 1328 (or around 1912) and in use for the Balkan Wars.

I have seen physical evidence of this, as in photos of the converted rifles, and done translations of the Osmanli script, which describes the place and date, etc.

Illustrated below is a photo of such a conversion which was done about 1912. This photo reproduced here courtesy of renowned JPS of the Gunboard's forum.

EDIT. Also found a photo of another Peabody-Martini conversion on the net. This one was dated earlier again, showing 1327 (or roughly around 1911/12)

Cheers, S>S

[assafx]

Thanks, here's something i did not know. so this one is from 1912 (1331) so more or less around 1910 we have conversions of these guns.

we don't know how many were converted but it solved some logistic issues for the empire.

i have to process this new info.

Thanks !

[green_acorn]

Thank you for the very interesting and informative thread.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Alex Glick]

Hello! I am the colleague of Asaph, from Israel Antiquities Authority. The second Gras cartridge found in the context of the First World War. In the site of the battle between the British and the Turks. Next to him archaeologist expedition found many .303 ammo, made till 1918, and a lot of British military buttons. The loci is little bit disturbed (one Brno 7.92 Mauser from 1948), but generally its OK. So I'm pretty sure - this cartridge belongs to the battlefield of WWI.

[assafx]

Shalom Alex,

hope you read all the discussion above

[shippingsteel]

Hello! I am the colleague of Asaph, from Israel Antiquities Authority. The second Gras cartridge found in the context of the First World War. In the site of the battle between the British and the Turks. Next to him archaeologist expedition found many .303 ammo, made till 1918, and a lot of British military buttons. The loci is little bit disturbed (one Brno 7.92 Mauser from 1948), but generally its OK. So I'm pretty sure - this cartridge belongs to the battlefield of WWI.

Greetings Alex, and welcome to the forum.! Your archaeological work has certainly raised some interesting discussion points - regarding the weaponry used by the Ottomans in Palestine. And thank you for providing some more detailed background info on the context in which your cartridges are being found. In this case, I believe, the overall 'context' is of most importance.

Of course the primary service arm of the Turks was the 'modern' German manufactured Mauser rifles in 7.65x53mm. These came in the 3 different models ... M1890, M1893 and M1903. The Turks were also provided with the Gew88 and Gew98 rifles by the Germans at various times. However during certain periods of the war these supplies were prevented by blockades.

The secondary arms of the Turks would include the older Mauser M1887 model in the blackpowder 9.5mm calibre, together with the upgraded Peabody-Martini rifles firing Mauser ammo. As far as the original calibre Peabody rifles go, I very much doubt they would have been used in any front-line capacity by the Turks, but perhaps they armed guards and police at home.?

Now the Gras rifle, which I believe were captured by the Turks (from the Greeks during the Balkan Wars) were a more 'modern' style of bolt-action rifle, made by OEWG of Steyr, in 1877. So I would classify the Greek Y1874 rifle just about alongside the Mauser M1887 in the 'pecking order' of weapons the Ottomans had at their disposal, especially during an arms shortage.

So when we look back at the original post in this thread, I don't see it as any coincidence that you have blackpowder M1887 cartridges being found alongside the blackpowder 11mm Gras. It says volumes about the state of the Ottomans weapon supply at that time, with them resorting to using these obsolescent blackpowder rifles. However from an organisational viewpoint, it does definitely make sense to keep these type of weapons together within a certain unit.

Cheers, S>S

[Alex Glick]

Hello! In the coastal area of Israel, we generally find German-made cartridges. The only place in Coastal area where there were many Turkish cartridges 7.65 - is a neighborhood of Tel Baruch (northern Tel-Aviv). Number of Turkish cartridges 7.65mm we found in the interior of Israel, Jerusalem and Judeah region. In the area of Tel Baruch stood Circassian military units, not exactly regular Turkish infantry. Perhaps this is a sign that the Turkish regular units of the main direction were armed with German weapons and Turkish units on secondary directions and the militia - armed with Turkish Mausers and obsolete weapons.

[Alex Glick]

And the news - another Greek Gras from 1881 found near Eilat (South Israel, near Red Sea).

https://sites.google.com/site/cartridge1881/(Hebrew)

[trajan]

And the news - another Greek Gras from 1881 found near Eilat (South Israel, near Red Sea).

https://sites.google.com/site/cartridge1881/(Hebrew)

Near Eilat? So, on the outskirts of Aqaba - as in "I shall be at Aqaba. That, IS written! In here" (from the film!)! A very nice find, and in good condition. I would imagine that many of these cases were collected for re-use of the metal, which would help explain why they might be rather uncommon site finds.

Trajan

[assafx]

Near Eilat? So, on the outskirts of Aqaba - as in "I shall be at Aqaba. That, IS written! In here" (from the film!)! A very nice find, and in good condition. I would imagine that many of these cases were collected for re-use of the metal, which would help explain why they might be rather uncommon site finds.

Trajan

The Hebrew article is taking too many assumptions as to how this cartridge got to the its location.

he assumes that there was an Ottoman outpost in eilat and when the soldiers retreated, they left guns and ammo.

Then came the Bedouins, took them and one of them fired the gun at the wadi where the cartridge was found...

I don't think that someone kept cartridges for their metal, maybe for reloading them later?

Another possibility that we cannot rule out is the weapons market of the time.

[trajan]

Thanks Assaf for your critique on the Hebrew article. I had to rely on the Google transliteration, which gave the sense but - without knowing the language - not the detail... I have been to Aqaba many a-time, but always thought that Eilat was a post 1948 settlement? Happy to be corrected!

That aside, just for fun, and especially for our mate SS down under, I thought I'd post these markings of cases currently on sale here for you all to enjoy. They are all allegedly from Gallipoli...

[assafx]

Thanks Assaf for your critique on the Hebrew article. I had to rely on the Google transliteration, which gave the sense but - without knowing the language - not the detail... I have been to Aqaba many a-time, but always thought that Eilat was a post 1948 settlement? Happy to be corrected!

That aside, just for fun, and especially for our mate SS down under, I thought I'd post these markings of cases currently on sale here for you all to enjoy. They are all allegedly from Gallipoli...

207283781_1 (1).jpg

If i remember correctly the ottomans had a police station in what was then Umm Rashrash. The british mandate kept a small police station at the same spot.

[Guest Eyal]

Hello Shippingsteel, Assaf, Michael and all the others

Holding in my hand another cartridge case, possibly 11X59 mm, made by Georg Roth A.G., Vienna in the same year (1886) as posted here about a year ago.

The case been measured and fits well the 11x59 Greek Gras ammo dimensions in Michael's post above.

I found it about 40 years ago near the Sataf fountain,10 kilometers west from Jerusalem, Attached two photographs.

For many years I assumed it's earlier to WW1 but lately, as I received pictures of similar ammo case (little damaged and unidentified yet) made by the same manufacturer that found in ww1 battle site and red about it, I realized it is possibly a part of it.

I Would like to share more information and hear your ideas about the origin of this find.

Many thanks, Eyal

 

 

[assafx]

Welcome to the forum Eyal,

Recently Another one was found in archeological check, near Mount Zion (on the slopes going down towards Cinematheque).

Its the same Gras ammunition, made by Georg Roth as yours for the Greek army ( Ελληνικός Στρατός ). 

 

as you can see in the discussion above, there are three options.

1. the Ottoman army used an unknown number of captured Gras rifles.

in a war of attrition and the troubles they have with supply until February 1916, it is likely they had to use every possible weapon they had.

I won't be surprised it reached the Palestine front which was less important for the ottoman empire.

 

2. There are some similarities with the Peabody Martiny cartridge and the Gras.

i suggested that maybe there was Ottoman use of the Greek ammunition with their martiny rifles.

 

3. these rifles were sold to the locals over the free market.

 

so far there is no conclusive evidence to support any theory and cartridges came from, Sataf, Eshtaol, Jerusalem, Jaffa and Eilat as far as i recall.

 

Assaf

[trajan]

I came across a reference in a British diplomatic note of 1916 to the Izzi of Yemen having Gras rifles, that he was prepared to use against the Turks, but unfortunately no indication as to who supplied these. But, goes to show that these rifles and their cartridges were around in the region.

[assafx]

could this be a Gras?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330422

[Radlad]

47 minutes ago, assafx said:

could this be a Gras?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330422

 

Certainly. It looks like the Gras 1874 model carbine

[assafx]

Fantastic. this photograph buried my ammo theory but added another gun to the messy ottoman army.

 

Thank you,

 

Assaf

Edited 14 May , 2018 by assafx

[trajan]

On 21/03/2016 at 12:46, shippingsteel said:

Assaf, these conversions of the Peabody-Martini rifles were being done in Istanbul at least as early as 1328 (or around 1912) and in use for the Balkan Wars.

I have seen physical evidence of this, as in photos of the converted rifles, and done translations of the Osmanli script, which describes the place and date, etc.

Illustrated below is a photo of such a conversion which was done about 1912. This photo reproduced here courtesy of renowned JPS of the Gunboard's forum.

EDIT. Also found a photo of another Peabody-Martini conversion on the net. This one was dated earlier again, showing 1327 (or roughly around 1911/12)

Cheers, S>S

 

It is always nice to come back to an old thread and up date it!

 

The conversions were done using 200,000 barrels and 150,000 new sights ordered from OEWG, also a new extractor system which meant shortening the chamber. The contract with OEWG was from October 1910 and March 1911, the back of the chamber being marked with a new serial from which I have learnt that at least 173,778 P-M's were converted this way. Oddly enought, though, that serial number is on a rifle with the year mark 1330 (13th March 1914/12th March 1915), but I also have on record a rifle with a later year mark, 1331 (1915/1916) with a lower serial - 164,236... Note incidentally, the photo on the left (1328) shows the strengthening plates added to the the back of the chamber on the later examples of the conversions to secure the hinge pin, this being absent on the other example (1327).

 

For those who like obscure information, the Osmanlica text reads "‘Tüfenk Fabrikası / İstanbul / Sene – 1327' or '1328', etc., i.e., ‘Rifle Factory, Istanbul, year 1327’ or '1328'. etc. (On a side note, I had always throught that 'Istanbul' came into use only after 1923/25 or so, but as you can see it is used here and also on the Ottoman-made muzzle caps produced in 1328 for their Mauser rifles.) 

 

Trajan

[trajan]

On 14/05/2018 at 09:27, assafx said:

could this be a Gras?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205330422

 

On 14/05/2018 at 10:15, Radlad said:

 

Certainly. It looks like the Gras 1874 model carbine

 

On 14/05/2018 at 10:19, assafx said:

Fantastic. this photograph buried my ammo theory but added another gun to the messy ottoman army.

 

It certainly looks to be a Model 1866/74/80 Gras Artillery Musketoon - see e.g., https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/model-18667480-gras-artillery-musketoon-171078 And the persence of uniformed German soldiers - one a senior NCO - in the middle of the throng here makes it certain this is WW1...

 

Now where did he get that from? The answer in part is that the guy with this Gras is NOT a regular soldier... He is wearing the headress typical of a Zeybek, one of the irregular 'soldiers' usually from the Aegean region. There are certainly regular Ottoman soldiers there - all wearing the cloth kalabak, and one officer with a kalpak, or fur hat, and the setting looks to be the series of passes over the 'Cilician Gates'.

 

Julian

[assafx]

18 hours ago, trajan said:

 

 

 

It certainly looks to be a Model 1866/74/80 Gras Artillery Musketoon - see e.g., https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/model-18667480-gras-artillery-musketoon-171078 And the persence of uniformed German soldiers - one a senior NCO - in the middle of the throng here makes it certain this is WW1...

 

Now where did he get that from? The answer in part is that the guy with this Gras is NOT a regular soldier... He is wearing the headress typical of a Zeybek, one of the irregular 'soldiers' usually from the Aegean region. There are certainly regular Ottoman soldiers there - all wearing the cloth kalabak, and one officer with a kalpak, or fur hat, and the setting looks to be the series of passes over the 'Cilician Gates'.

 

Julian

I was so busy looking at the rifle that i forgot to look at the rest of rephotograph.

I believe that the German on the right seems to be standing next to a camera on a tripod.

They are in the process of transferring supply from one train to another my guess is that one of them should be narrow gauge leading to our area.

What can you tell me about Irregular soldiers during the war?

Kress von kressenstein tell that in late 1914 the army in syria was short of rifles and even used old Remington and Winchester repeating rifles and in some cases pistols.

Could it be that regular units, even in 1917 used Gras?

 

Assaf