A few Ottoman Cartridges

[assafx]

Hi,

All the cartridges seems to be a Mauser 1887 cartridges. I have problems reading parts of the headstamps on them (i can read the Mauser and the year).

The last one was found next to them. It looks similar to the 1887 cartridges above (but the year is 1881).

It was so badly damaged that i couldn't take accurate measurements.

Thank You

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

Hello Assaf, I am very interested to see your photos but they do not appear on the page.? I have collected a lot of information on this type of Turkish ammunition.

EDIT. Sorry Assaf, cancel the above.! I tried another browser and the photos worked on that screen. I will be back shortly after looking at the headstamp markings.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Yes the top 3 cases are for the M1887 Turkish Mauser in 9.5x60R calibre which were of course blackpowder cartridges. They are all dated 1307 (or 1889)

The headstamp indicates the rifle type (ie. Mauser) and the calibre and the date of manufacture. I believe the bottom case is from the Greek 11mm Gras.?

Cheers, S>S

[assafx]

Yes the top 3 cases are for the M1887 Turkish Mauser in 9.5x60R calibre which were of course blackpowder cartridges. They are all dated 1307 (or 1889)

The headstamp indicates the rifle type (ie. Mauser) and the calibre and the date of manufacture. I believe the bottom case is from the French M1886 Lebel.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks S>S,

when you date them you date them according to the hijri calendar or the rumi one?

if it's an M1886 Lebel how come the date is 1881?

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

Yes Assaf sorry again, still trying to work that one out from memory, and I was wrong. I now believe it is the 11mm Gras but I will need to check more ...

I do know the Turks had these Gras rifles which they captured from the Greeks during the Balkan wars. But I have only studied the major Turkish types.

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. Just did a quick check and it's definitely the 11x59R cartridge for the French Gras rifle. The Turks came by these via the Greeks from the French, etc.!

And regarding the dating of the Ottoman cartridges, when I convert the dates from the headstamps I use the Hijri Calendar. This basically means you add 582

[trajan]

Assaf,

Keep your eyes open for Turkish made 'Gras' cartridges - they are not that common... Five pointed star between two opposed crescents at the top, and the only one I have seen had an 1331 mark at the bottom: by the Rumi dating system, I believe - but I could well be wrong as cartridges are not really my thing! - and so 1915/1916 = AH 1333/1334.

IIRC, according to TELawrence, Ottoman troops in Palestine were armed with the Gras 1874, although I suppose these were really the Austrian/Greek version of that rifle, the Waffenfabrik Steyr made ones...

Trajan

[assafx]

WOW this is the third item that i syumbuled upon in my research, that shows equipment that probably arrived from the blakan wars and is present in the palestine front

(there's Gasser 1874 and a hand grenade).

Trajan,

I don't collect these items. they were found in archaeological excavations, surveys or supervision work.

some of my colleagues collect them and pass them on to me to use them in my research (according to the israeli law they are not antiquities).

i will try to look for evidence in TE Lawrence.

I do have a problem referring to the dates in ottoman cartridges. it's hard to tell if the dates are Rumi or Hijri, is it possiable that the german made ones are Hijri and the Turkish are Rumi? or both are?

i can see the dates on the 1887 but what is the third word that is hiding in the cartridge?

Thanks

Assaf

[trajan]

... I don't collect these items. they were found in archaeological excavations, surveys or supervision work. ... i will try to look for evidence in TE Lawrence. ... I do have a problem referring to the dates in ottoman cartridges. it's hard to tell if the dates are Rumi or Hijri, is it possiable that the german made ones are Hijri and the Turkish are Rumi? or both are? ... i can see the dates on the 1887 but what is the third word that is hiding in the cartridge?

Hi Assaf,

Well, I am - for my sins? - a university lecturer in archaeology, after many years in the field, and the GW is my hobby area (well, not quite hobby, as I am doing a lot of research on German Imperial bayonets), so Baruch haba to another archaeologist on GWF!

The TELawrence data (if he was the author!) comes in a roundabout way and impression from Handbook of the Turkish Army, 8th Provisional Edition, February 1916, Intelligence Section, Cairo' original 1916, reprinted 1996, ISBN 1-870423-66-6 (dif. no. for the USA eds.), all thanks to Michaeldr at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=152688and used by me at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227053&hl=peabody#entry2255613 where I quote:

"It was believed in the autumn of 1914 that the Turkish Army had about 500,000 7.65 Mauser rifles (later this is also described as being the "1903 pattern and short bayonet") and perhaps 200,000 9.5mm Mausers. It also possessed Martini-Henry, Martini-Peabody rifles to the number of perhaps 500,000, but many of these were very old (370,000), dating from the war of 1877-1878. It had in addition a considerable number of Remingtons and Winchester repeating rifles, but little ammunition for them."

Note, that there is no mention of Gras (Waffenfabrik) rifles there, but if the Turks in the Middle East in 1914 were still supplied with MP rifles, and also Winchester repeaters from the time of the Battle of Pleva, then I would expect Gras to be around... Either way, I can't really see how a Gras cartridge ended up in Israel - unless in the hands of the Bedouin?

On dates, well, SS has done much more work on this than I have ever attempted, but my impression has been that the Germans used AH, and the Turks ARummi - so over to SS on that, and also on the Osmanli word, which he has a much better handle on!

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

I do have a problem referring to the dates in ottoman cartridges. it's hard to tell if the dates are Rumi or Hijri, is it possiable that the german made ones are Hijri and the Turkish are Rumi? or both are?

From the work I have done on the Turkish weaponry, I believe the dates on the early ammunition is using the Hijri calendar, and I have cross referenced this with known European contracts which supplied not just ammunition, but also the Mauser rifles and bayonets.

But as always, there are 'swings and roundabouts'.! From what I have seen things changed with the dating after the 'Young Turk' overthrow of the Ottoman regime. Then it becomes more complicated with some of the dating more likely to have used the Rumi calendar.

So for the Great War period weaponry I would be more inclined to use the Rumi calendar, before the 'Young Turks' then definitely the Hijri calendar.

An interesting snippet regarding those M1887 headstamps is that they got the script 'backwards' for the Mauser writing.! The conjoined "ma" lettering is back to front, the Europeans really struggled with their rendering of the Osmanli script, especially at the beginning.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And regarding your badly damaged 11mm 'Greek' Gras cartridge ... here is a better photo of what it should look like, with this example made in 1886.

Cheers, S>S

[dman]

As for the purported 500,000 7.65 mm rifles - remember there were 3 different Mauser models in only a dozen years

The 1890 (Belgian Mauser) single column magazine protruding from under stock, the 1893 model - generally the same as

Spanish Mauser of this period and the 1903 - basically a Gewehr 1898

All would have served in the Turkish army

[trajan]

Note, that there is no mention of Gras (Waffenfabrik) rifles there, but if the Turks in the Middle East in 1914 were still supplied with MP rifles, and also Winchester repeaters from the time of the Battle of Pleva, then I would expect Gras to be around... Either way, I can't really see how a Gras cartridge ended up in Israel - unless in the hands of the Bedouin?

Asaf, I did a quick search of what we have in our library and could find no mention of the Gras being used by the Ottoman military, at least not officially, except possibly during the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-23 by the Nationalist forces that later evolved into the military, which of course would not account for this cartridge case of yours... So, I was barking up a wrong tree there, I'm afraid...

Trajan

[assafx]

Asaf, I did a quick search of what we have in our library and could find no mention of the Gras being used by the Ottoman military, at least not officially, except possibly during the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-23 by the Nationalist forces that later evolved into the military, which of course would not account for this cartridge case of yours... So, I was barking up a wrong tree there, I'm afraid...

Trajan

Toda raba, I only managed two excavations before turning to the IAA field photographer. now i don't photograph for fun anymore and miss excavating.

The beduins lay there hand on what ever they can find but its Hard to tell how this cartridge got here.

In addition, I have two items that came from the Balkans, A hand grenade (see post 662 in here ) and this gasser revolver:

I found this articale about the gasser revolvers.

It points to a connection to the Balkan wars, yet it does not explain how the cartridge (found next to now days, Eshtaol, on the way from Artuf to Jerusalem) or the pistol (Nebi Samwil)

found their way to Ottoman Palestine.

I can think of Battelfield Souvenir / lootting that maybe found it way through arms trade to the local population or a reserve soldier that had no available weapon and was issued this one.

The grenade is easy, now that i know that this is a Bulgarian Grenade and that Bulgaria was part of the Center Powers it's easy to explain how it got to this front.

The Ottomans needed grenades and either got the designs and manufactured them ¹ or that they simply received Grenades from Bulgaria as well as from Germany.

Its hard to jump into conclusions from three items but it is an interesting subject.

Assaf

1. Jonathan Grant say that the Tufani Arsenal manufactured a few grenades. (Grant, Jonathan. "The Sword of the Sultan: Ottoman Arms Imports, 1854-1914." The Journal of Military History 66, no. 1 (2002): 9-36)

Edited 14 April , 2016 by Assaf

[assafx]

Sorry for my late reply, Friday is a busy day.

its an exec match/ any idea on who is the manufacturer?

And regarding your badly damaged 11mm 'Greek' Gras cartridge ... here is a better photo of what it should look like, with this example made in 1886.

Cheers, S>S

11mm Gras.jpg

[trajan]

... I believe the dates on the early ammunition is using the Hijri calendar, and I have cross referenced this with known European contracts ... ... But as always, there are 'swings and roundabouts'.! From what I have seen things changed with the dating after the 'Young Turk' overthrow of the Ottoman regime. Then it becomes more complicated with some of the dating more likely to have used the Rumi calendar. ... So for the Great War period weaponry I would be more inclined to use the Rumi calendar, before the 'Young Turks' then definitely the Hijri calendar. ... (stressed sections highlighted by Trajan)

Hi SS, this seems to be a tad contradictory - you are saying dating is first by Hijri, then "things changed" with the Young Turks (of 1908), with some dating done by the Rumi - but for the GW period weaponry, dating by Rumi at first before the Young Turks, then back to Hijri? A slip of the fingers, perchance? It happens! Otherwise am I being somewhat dim? (not unusual, as my nearest and dearest sometimes point out...)

Anyway, FWIW, Wiki, a sometimes reliable source, says the Rumi was adopted "for all civic matters" in 1840, was realigned to the Gregorian calendar in February 1917, and replaced by the common era from 1926... Yes, you are, I believe, quite right in noting that foreign supplied weaponry was dated by the AH system, but I suspect that Turkish-made material may have always been dated by the "Rumi calendar". I don't honestly know - but I did have this feeling that the date on the Ottoman cartridge I mentioned in post no.6 above was Rumi not AH.

Trajan

EDIT: PS - In the meantime I'll get checking on where I found that reference to Ottoman-made Gras cartridges!

[trajan]

Toda raba, I only managed two excavations before turning to the IAA field photographer. now i don't photograph for fun anymore and miss excavating.

The beduins lay there hand on what ever they can find but its Hard to tell how this cartridge got here.

In addition, I have two items that came from the Balkans, A hand grenade (see post 662 in here ) and this gasser revolver:

I know what you mean about not doing actual digging... But great photographs!

How on earth did you manage to identify this revolver? Looks to have been a challenge!

Back to Gras... I promised in the preceding post that I would look for why I had this idea of Turkish Gras cartridges with Rumi markings, and I found this internet reference at: http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12301&view=previous

"In the book « Cartridges of the Gras system » (P.Mention, C.Ramio, ISBN 0-939683-02-4), they speak about the Turkish existence of two markings of 1915 (impressed headstamp et raised headstamp on the bevel)". Photographs of said cartridges are provided including the Rumi marked headstamp.

There are other bits and pieces there on the Turkish use of the Gras, including the suggestion "this Turkish catridge was made for Gras rifles captured to Greece after conflicts like the Thirty Days' War (1897) and the Balkan Wars (1912-13)", and the unsourced comment that Gras "were used by Guards and local Police in far flung outposts of the Ottoman Empire, and also as "Bribes" for Arab tribesmen in Mesopotamia and Arabia", which is certainly feasable.

Now, when I was researching the first Gras bayonets I bought over here - well, they were actually Waffenfabrik/Steyr for the Greek army, but that is by the by - I did a lot of blessed googling to find about them, and I guess it was this page that stuck in mind...

[Khaki]

Gasser revolvers were a very popular civilian and military arm of the time and were produced on a fairly wide scale, including production in Belgium usually seen with a top break feature incorporating the Webley-Pryse style locking arms. Frequently to be seen with ivory grips and nickel plating with light engraving. The recovered arm shown appears to be the earlier model with solid frame and a loading gate, interestingly it shows a shorter barrel than standard which was about 9" in length and was available in octagonal or round.

How it turned up where found is anyone's guess, as a civilian weapon it may have been carried by an early traveler in that region.

Very interesting, was anything else excavated in situ with the Gasser? was it loaded??

khaki

[assafx]

Gasser revolvers were a very popular civilian and military arm of the time and were produced on a fairly wide scale, including production in Belgium usually seen with a top break feature incorporating the Webley-Pryse style locking arms. Frequently to be seen with ivory grips and nickel plating with light engraving. The recovered arm shown appears to be the earlier model with solid frame and a loading gate, interestingly it shows a shorter barrel than standard which was about 9" in length and was available in octagonal or round.

How it turned up where found is anyone's guess, as a civilian weapon it may have been carried by an early traveler in that region.

Very interesting, was anything else excavated in situ with the Gasser? was it loaded??

khaki

it might be still loaded, i have no budget to clean it so it stays like this and i can't see if its loaded or not.

it was found on a little bit below top soil, at that level you find WWI remains in this site.

the excevators back then just kept it with a few beyonets and threw the rest (and they dug the heart of the battlefield).

so there's a chance that it was carried by an ottoman soldier and then fell to the ground only to be found 85 years later.

Assaf

I know what you mean about not doing actual digging... But great photographs!

How on earth did you manage to identify this revolver? Looks to have been a challenge!

Back to Gras... I promised in the preceding post that I would look for why I had this idea of Turkish Gras cartridges with Rumi markings, and I found this internet reference at: http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12301&view=previous

"In the book « Cartridges of the Gras system » (P.Mention, C.Ramio, ISBN 0-939683-02-4), they speak about the Turkish existence of two markings of 1915 (impressed headstamp et raised headstamp on the bevel)". Photographs of said cartridges are provided including the Rumi marked headstamp.

There are other bits and pieces there on the Turkish use of the Gras, including the suggestion "this Turkish catridge was made for Gras rifles captured to Greece after conflicts like the Thirty Days' War (1897) and the Balkan Wars (1912-13)", and the unsourced comment that Gras "were used by Guards and local Police in far flung outposts of the Ottoman Empire, and also as "Bribes" for Arab tribesmen in Mesopotamia and Arabia", which is certainly feasable.

Now, when I was researching the first Gras bayonets I bought over here - well, they were actually Waffenfabrik/Steyr for the Greek army, but that is by the by - I did a lot of blessed googling to find about them, and I guess it was this page that stuck in mind...

if there are ottoman headstamps for this ammunition, it means they had a more then a few of these guns.

[shippingsteel]

Sorry for my late reply, Friday is a busy day.

its an exec match/ any idea on who is the manufacturer?

Hi Assaf, the manufacturer of the 11mm Greek Gras cartridge was the Georg Roth factory in Vienna, Austria.

It is also a fact that the Turks made use of these Greek Gras rifles which they captured during the Balkan Wars.

Shown below are photos of the Greek cartridge compared with the locally made Turkish 11x59R Gras cartridge.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Shown below are photos of the Greek cartridge compared with the locally made Turkish 11x59R Gras cartridge.

Yes, that is the Turkish case indeed, the same in fact as illustrated in the post I quoted above, no.16: and SS, it is usual (and polite) to credit and acknowledge sources!!! That aside, nice to see it to scale and side by side with the Austrian cartridge

if there are ottoman headstamps for this ammunition, it means they had a more then a few of these guns.

Agreed, and it also means that they were supplying or selling them to somebody on a wide-scale basis... If TEL or whoever wrote the 1915 Handbook of the Turkish Army did not mention these as being in army service then perhaps they were given to the local Bedu? The Jandarma are another possibility, although in all the contemporary photographs that I have seen of these guys (not that many!) they are carrying M-P rifles.

[assafx]

Hi Assaf, the manufacturer of the 11mm Greek Gras cartridge was the Georg Roth factory in Vienna, Austria.

It is also a fact that the Turks made use of these Greek Gras rifles which they captured during the Balkan Wars.

Shown below are photos of the Greek cartridge compared with the locally made Turkish 11x59R Gras cartridge.

Cheers, S>S

11mm Gras.jpg11mmGras.jpg

My colleague and me (who is the weapon expert of the Israel Antiquity Authority), had a discussion following another "Gras" cartridge that was found.

He had an example that actually survived well and he took measurements.

At first look, it seemed like a Turkish Peabody but then looking at the headstamp he had the same ID as the cartridge i showed.

We discussed it, and we came with a theory that actually can explain the ottoman usage of a Greek Gras ammunition.

When i checked it with Jean Huon book, Both cartridges are almost identical in most of their measurements (changes in fractions of mm).

These small differences, had us thinking that the Greek ammunition that was captured by the ottomans during the Balkan wars, was used for their Peabody rifles later on even during WWI.

i can't get the actual guns and ammo to test it (i'm willing to get a long rope to pull the trigger with ) but this theory seems more likely then manufacturing ammo for an unknown number of captured guns.

any thoughts?

Assaf

Edited 19 March , 2016 by Assaf

[trajan]

Hmmm, needs a bit of trialing there - yes, possibly with a long rope! The Ottoman army (as the Turkish post-1923 army) did use a wide range of captured and other weaponry, and yet I have never seen any evidence of the Ottoman army using Greek Gras as a regular or even ad-hoc weapon - I think the Turkish forestry commission, though, did use these in a 'sporterised' form after 1923. "Absence of evidence, etc., etc.," but knowing that the Ottoman Jandarma did use M-P rifles, well, opens up possibility... Bit too late here to look any further into this, but doubtless me old mate SS will have something to say - he is much more of a rifle man than I!

[shippingsteel]

Assaf, yes at first glance the 2 cartridge types (Gras & Peabody) do look to be similar in size and overall shape and appearance, but they ARE different.

The are both Rimless cartridge cases, and the technical aspects give the calibres as 11x59mmR 'Gras' and 11.43x55mmR Turkish Peabody-Martini (or .45")

However you will find the difference to be in the head of the case. They have different case types. Look carefully at the base of the case (ie.headstamp area)

The Gras case has a raised inner rim around the primer while the Peabody case is your more standard flat base. There is a special term for this case type.??

I am not an ammunition expert and I have never fired these type of rifles, however I suspect you may encounter "headspace issues" interchanging this ammo.

Personally I am comfortable that the Turks manufactured their own ammunition for the Greek Gras rifles that they captured in large numbers during Balkan war.

For some further reading and to compare photographs of these types of ammunition I have mentioned above, please see 'Greek Gras' and 'Peabody-Martini'.

Cheers, S>S

[assafx]

Assaf, yes at first glance the 2 cartridge types (Gras & Peabody) do look to be similar in size and overall shape and appearance, but they ARE different.

The are both Rimless cartridge cases, and the technical aspects give the calibres as 11x59mmR 'Gras' and 11.43x55mmR Turkish Peabody-Martini (or .45")

However you will find the difference to be in the head of the case. They have different case types. Look carefully at the base of the case (ie.headstamp area)

The Gras case has a raised inner rim around the primer while the Peabody case is your more standard flat base. There is a special term for this case type.??

I am not an ammunition expert and I have never fired these type of rifles, however I suspect you may encounter "headspace issues" interchanging this ammo.

Personally I am comfortable that the Turks manufactured their own ammunition for the Greek Gras rifles that they captured in large numbers during Balkan war.

For some further reading and to compare photographs of these types of ammunition I have mentioned above, please see 'Greek Gras' and 'Peabody-Martini'.

Cheers, S>S

Hi shippingsteel,

I read your referrals and i'm not completely convinced.

with your permission i'll go into our reasoning behind it.

As me and my colleague see it, In order to have the Ottomans manufacture ammo for Greek Gras rifles, the number of these captured guns should be high, IMO at least 100,000 rifles.

Otherwise i don't see a reason to start manufacturing another ammunition type, especially considering the relatively small scale of the Ottoman ammunition industry at the time.

there's also the simple question of : was it worth while to enter an old rifle into service? do we have enough spare parts for it? (not to mention that we need to train soldiers to use it).

Now, If the number of these guns is that high, why don't we see it in photographs, the British hand book of the Turkish army (btw thanks Julian, that's a great source) or in museum displays captured ottoman weapons?

to make things more interesting, we don't have any evidence in Israel of "Martini" ammunition that was manufactured in the Ottoman empire but we found Greek Gras in two separate sites both near roads or sites of WWI.

so how do we have no evidence of about 500,000 rifles but find two examples of captured Greek guns?

all of the above, led us to think that maybe there is a misconception regarding the captured Greek Gras rifles and what we see, is the usage of captured ammunition that might fit.

in that line of thought, maybe the Ottoman Gras cartridge is actually a local attempt to manufacture ammunition for the Martini rifles?

what we do need are more examples of both cartridges.

Assaf

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi Assaf,

An interesting thread. However, I think S>S is correct. I attach a couple of photos taken from "Cartridges for Collectors" by Fred Datig (1963) which give measurements for each cartridge. Whereas it is true both cartridges are rimmed and look similar and even if the Gras cartridge will fit into the chamber of the Martini rifle, the Martini action will almost certainly not close on the Gras cartridge. The reason for this, identified by S>S, is the rebated rim, known as a "Mauser-base", of the Gras cartridge will be too thick to allow the Martini action to close.

It might be possible to alter the Martini chamber to take the Grass cartridge but that would not help as a Martini thus converted would probably not function with standard Martini ammunition.

Regards,

Michael.