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Remembered Today:

German M.1871 Bayonet reduxit


trajan

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You are forgiven! But if my memory serves me well, then being a 14th company mark makes it a nice closely dated piece for its issue. Approved in 1881, but issued and marked between 1877 and 1890.

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Julian,

Nice to be able to date the regimental markings to such a close period, thanks again.

Mike.

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  • 2 months later...

Gentlemen,

I am asking for your assistance to identify a 1871 bayonet that I acquired in Macedonia as a war relique. The weapon most probably belonged to one of the German units involved in the fights at the Macedonian front in the Great War.

Markings:

ricasso:                      Allex Coppel, Solingen

spine of the blade:  II (or I?) W 74, crown

crossguard:               5. R (Italian). A.F. 9. 179.

 

My guess is that this weapon is the

  1. Reserve Fussartillerie-Regiment Nr.5, 9 Kompagnie, Waffe 179. (Niederschlesisches Fussartillerie-Regiment No. 5.) or

  2. Reserve Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.5, 9 Kompagnie, Waffe 179. (Feldartillerie-Regiment von Podbielski (1. Niederschlesisches) No.5

 

Unfortunatelly, I couldn’t verify which of these units was deployed to South Serbia (Macedonian front) in the period 1914-18. 

I appreciate your efforts to decide wich unit the weapon belonged to.

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Welcome!

 

If you mean 'italic' by 'Italian', then yes, the Reserve Fussartillerie-Regiment Nr.5, 9 Kompagnie, Waffe 179. (Niederschlesisches Fussartillerie-Regiment No. 5.). BUT, by 1914-1918 these guys were more likely to have been carrying S.98/05...

 

Trajan 

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Hello,

Thanks for ur prompt reply.

Yes, I meant Italic.

On this site http://genwiki.genealogy.net/RFAR_5  I found that the 5.Feldartillerie-Regiment was assigned a 5. Reserve Feldartillerie-Regiment, however, it is not the case for the 5. Fussartillerie-Regiment (not mentioned it had a reserve regiment). So it is a bit confusing and I am not sure which unit was deployed to Macedonia in 1915-18?

Is there any avaiable source for the Truppenstempel/unit markings for that area and the unit deployments in WWI?

I'd like to adhere history to this piece to remember the old bearer of it.

I have seen those S.98/05s there too and managed to get one aA and a nA both without sawback.

As I am from Hungary I was interested in Mannlicher 1895 bayonettes having belonged not to Bulgarian Army, but KuK troops. I found them and other KuK reliques like belt buckle and officers binocle. But again I can not find sources to identify either the KuK units deployed to thet place in that time. Macedonian theatre of war is aout of interest of the majority.

 

So thanks again I appreciate any help.

 

Sandor

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It would be nice to see the stamp, the Reserve Fuss Art. stamping is not mentioned in Stempel vorschrift von 1877 or 1897, possible the F could be missreaded or have different explanation.

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Hi,

I uploaded the photos of the markings.

 

This is what I suspect as well, that only to the Feldartillerie-regiment was assigned a Reserve FA regiment.

Andy, are you the K98k bayonet expert (former BCN) from Slovakia?

Regards,

IMG_0384.JPG

IMG_0385.JPG

Edited by PeteGunn
additional info
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Thanks, the unit is like mentioned before, anyway there was older unit outdoted under the stamps, so the stamp here is later as 1874 realised, possible it could be war period stamp, should be looked for more info about Artillery units and their development.

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19 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Thanks, the unit is like mentioned before, anyway there was older unit outdoted under the stamps, so the stamp here is later as 1874 realised, possible it could be war period stamp, should be looked for more info about Artillery units and their development.

 

I see the markings you refer to, the 'smudged'effect of the 5 and the line above the 'R', but these could be 'fair wear and tear'.

 

20 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

It would be nice to see the stamp, the Reserve Fuss Art. stamping is not mentioned in Stempel vorschrift von 1877 or 1897, possible the F could be missreaded or have different explanation.

 

It is in the 1909 regulations, so this is a late unit stamping. I need to check the date of the earliest example of an S.98/05 issued to a Fussartillerie-Regiment: they were authorised for issue in 1905 as they gean to be produced but I guess some units got them later than others, and a reserve unit even later! 

 

Julian

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5 hours ago, trajan said:

I see the markings you refer to, the 'smudged'effect of the 5 and the line above the 'R', but these could be 'fair wear and tear'.

 

I scrutinized thoroughly the markings and I think there is only normal wear on it. No traces of older marks beneath, only erratic cuts and scrathes IMO.

 

5 hours ago, trajan said:

It is in the 1909 regulations, so this is a late unit stamping. I need to check the date of the earliest example of an S.98/05 issued to a Fussartillerie-Regiment: they were authorised for issue in 1905 as they gean to be produced but I guess some units got them later than others, and a reserve unit even later! 

 

Now I figured out that

- beside the Niederschlesische Fussartillerie-Regiment No.5. as parent unit, a Reserve-Fussartillerie- Regiment N.5. was established at the mobilization date  2 Aug, 1914.

- Niederschlesische Fussartillerie-Regiment No.5 was assigned to the 26. (Wuertembergische) Infantry-Division, which was engaded in fighting in South Serbia in 1915.

- Reserve-Fussartillerie- Regiment N.5. right after the mobolization was assigned to the Supreme Command of the Army, but I haven't found further information on any deployment of the unit to any theatre of warbetween 1914 - 18.

 

I may suppose that elements of Reserve-Fussartillerie- Regiment N.5. was deployed to the Balkans with the parent unit, but there is not even a slightest info on it. However, if the bayonet belonged to the Reserve-Fussartillerie- Regiment N.5 and later discovered in Macedonia we may come to the conlusion that the reserve unit might have been deployed together with the parent unit to Macedonia (South Serbia) in 1915. This also can answer the late stampings on the weapon, can't it?

 

Another question is, if it is a late stamp on the bayonet due to the formation of the unit in 1914, was it not stamped between 1874 and 1914 at all or the old stamping was just grinded away? I cant see traces of it.

 

Could anyone reveal information confirming or denying my hypothesis?

 

Julian, could you please give me a hint where to find authentic info on Seitengewehr stamping?

 

I appreciate your assistance, men.

 

Sandor

 

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The old unit stamp was there under the new one, it remains a doting pattern behind the new stamps, the old stamps were outdated, similar as on scabbards, but on crossguard were the new stamped over, on scabbards normally are in lower or higher position of older stamp added the newer one.

Find of a bayonet doesnt mean automatically it was there brought by soldier in WW1 in 100years could be done various scenarious. Should be read the exact history of the artillery unit, as similar smaller art. units were parts of higher Brigade or Divission commands. 

Yes i was the dbase keeper of old BCN.

Edited by AndyBsk
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2cc0d0bd0a7eb1ec7189f094194277f9.jpg.161d056e54a9403a68b99cf2c11f2f92.jpg

 

I found this photo from the German Military Cemetery Prilep/Macedonia with the tomb stone of A. Kubiak of the Fussartillerie-Regiment No.5. The soldier (gunner) passed away at the end of 1916. That means his unit was deployed to Macedonia not only in 1915, but in 1916 too. Trying to get a list of fallen soldiers to find the trace of the Res. Fussartl.Rgt. N0.5.

 

As for the bayonet, may only the first digit of 5.A.F. 9.179 be re-marked with the Itallic R and added a figure 5 on the very front in the beginning of the war? I mean, A.F.9.179. is just the remaining part of the original unit stamp?

 

Best regards,

Edited by PeteGunn
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Nice picture, the outdoting of old unit is on all parts of crossguard visible, so under AF 9 too, You should examine it by magnyfying glass, the A.F.9.179 is not corect wout the first 5R stamp. The Reserve FAR5 must be not automaticaly served in same area as Fuss Art.R.5, but it could that the units both served in same area in different period of 1915-18.

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I examined and I can see some holes or crates (dots) but not as much as on the scabbards in previous photos. These dots have no pattern at all, so even it is re-marked, I am not able to recall any old markings below the new one.

 

"the A.F.9.179 is not corect wout the first 5R stamp"  - what do you mean, I dont understand, sorry.

 

Regards,

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The old marking is not possible to see as it were outdoted, the 9.179 is a 9 company and weapon nr.179 as mentioned by previous answers by You and others,  so AF is designation of Fuss Artillery Regt. wout the first 5.or 5R, You dont known what for regiment is the weapon of. Other point the missing scabbard would probably help, but is not present, secondly the blade and crossguard was not gently cleaned by someone in previous time. But is real too that the old unit stamp were restamped to Reserve unit. For this i have not enough comparation from the pictures, could be done only by real bayonet holding in hand.

Edited by AndyBsk
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Been a busy week here, and have now caught up. All there is to add really, Sandor, is that that the best available guide to Seitengewehr markings is probably German Small Arms Markings, by Gortz and Bryans. This does not cover by any means the whole subject but serves as a general guide to marking practices as they were in 1909 and later. There is also Imperial German Regimenal Markings Reduxit by Jeff Noll, but that is less useful in many ways. On thing also to bear in mind is that Prussian and Bavarian marking systems differed slightly, and there were various revisions of both of these anyway between 1877 or so and 1914 or so - my copy of the 1909 regulations has loads of inserts to bring it up to date between 1909-1914.  

 

Julian

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  • 3 years later...
On 15/10/2015 at 12:18, trajan said:

It IS a nice one though! But no spine mark?

According to Carter, WK&C made plain versions for Prussia in 1886 and 1897, and sawback ones in 1891 and 1896. These WK&C ones are among the rarest - Carter only lists 5 WK&C altogether whereas he lists 35 for COULEUX... The rarest maker seems to be WERTH, of Solingen, Carter knowing of only two examples, and the most prolific were A.COPPEL and GEBR.WEYERSBURG, with just over 50 60 or so each.

This number on the pommel - would you please clarify? As for private purchase, well, if no spine mark then probably yes!

Julian

EDIT: corrected figures - bad typing and no proof-reading...

Hello! I’m new to the forum and joined because of your comment regarding WERTH. I’ve been digging the internet for hours and this appears to be the only time I’ve been able to find his name in relation to the M1871. I have a sawback version with his stamp on it and am seeking as much information as possible. Shall I post pictures here, or start a new thread for discussion? (Sorry if this is a silly question, I don’t know forum etiquette.)

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  • Admin
1 hour ago, nater said:

Shall I post pictures here, or start a new thread for discussion? 

Welcome to the GWF as this thread is three years old we would recommend you start a new thread with pictures.

 

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44 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the GWF as this thread is three years old we would recommend you start a new thread with pictures.

 

Got it, thank you!

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  • 4 weeks later...

A new post brings an old thread to life again and then newcomers like nater can see what has gone before (as he did) w/out making several searches....

Trajan

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