trajan Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 As is sometimes the case when posting something new it turns out that there is a thread on the same topic already... In this case it is the S.71, which was pretty intensively discussed in a now-locked thread, 'German M1871 Bayonet' - see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160916&h I have returned to the subject to post some of my examples, and to see what beauties others have got, but for starters, I thought I'd post this image of the S.71 being worn by an artillery crew in 1916... It was sent to me by a friend in the UK, who cannot remember where he got it from... The point being that this is clearly 1916 or later, as the chaps are wearing steel helmets, and at least two of the crew (possibly three) have S.71's (and another two have the equally outmoded 71/84's!!!). As such, it may serve to answer SS's query on that locked thread about whether or not these saw front-line service in the GW as opposed to being used by Landsturm and the like alone... Trajan EDIT: See now post no.12 for an alternative ID of these long bayonets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2015 This is the most recent addition to my collection of these, but is certainly in the worse condition. Of note, even so, as the first and so far only one I have seen in the local Antika Pazari... And what is more, it is an uncommon maker, COULAUX AND CO / KLINGENTHAL, a noted sword maker, and is spine marked W / 74, so fits with their known production dates, from 1873-1878. There is a crossguard marking, but all that I can see are the two digits '11' at the start... This came with a double-regimentally-marked locket in place, originally posted at: The original marking has been crossed-out, but is 26.L.I.1.185, and so, I believe, 26.Landwehr-Regiment I.Bataillon 1.Kompagnie Waffe185; the later one is 118.R.4.226., for Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 118, 4.Kompagnie, Waffe 226 - and so from that '11', it may match the crossguard marking. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 Don't know too much about this one, it has a number stamped on the pommel and nothing else that I can see, private purchase? possibly. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2015 ... Don't know too much about this one, it has a number stamped on the pommel and nothing else that I can see, private purchase? possibly. ... It IS a nice one though! But no spine mark? According to Carter, WK&C made plain versions for Prussia in 1886 and 1897, and sawback ones in 1891 and 1896. These WK&C ones are among the rarest - Carter only lists 5 WK&C altogether whereas he lists 35 for COULEUX... The rarest maker seems to be WERTH, of Solingen, Carter knowing of only two examples, and the most prolific were A.COPPEL and GEBR.WEYERSBURG, with just over 50 60 or so each. This number on the pommel - would you please clarify? As for private purchase, well, if no spine mark then probably yes! Julian EDIT: corrected figures - bad typing and no proof-reading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 October , 2015 Share Posted 15 October , 2015 Hello Julian, Here's a couple more shots, the number is hand stamped and has slightly dented the surrounding metal, Apart from the address marking I couldn't find anything else. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2015 Hello Julian, Here's a couple more shots, the number is hand stamped and has slightly dented the surrounding metal, Apart from the address marking I couldn't find anything else. How very odd... But if no spine mark, then yes, perhaps / probably an 'Eigentumsseitengewehr'... Yours is also lacking even a single fraktur mark on the pommel, but so is the one I show above, which is regimentally- and spine-marked, while two others I have to hand, dated W/74 and W/76, do have a pair of these frakturs, so the absence of that on yours proves nothing either way... I have another S.71 in the UK but that also, IIRC correctly, has no spine mark or fraktur marks... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2015 I have re-titled this thread from S.71 to M.71, as in the original locked thread, to better reflect the origins of this bayonet, as the Infanterie-Seiten-gewehr M(odell)/71. Between them Carter and Franz give a good account of its history and development, and a summary may not be out of place here... Orders for its design and the manufacture of prototypes seem to have been issued 22 March 1872, and there are some examples known marked W/72, but it is not certain if these are prototypes, trials, or production versions. Mass-production began 1873 and reached a peak in 1874-1875, and ending, it would seem, in 1883. There are, however, isolated examples in ones and twos spine-marked for 1891, 1892-1894,1896, 1897, 1900, and even one dated W/14 for 1914! It is assumed that this last example, unit-marked XIII.G.B.3.147 was in store and stamped when issued into service... The original scabbards were of leather with a 'brass' locket, but later replacements, up to or around 1914 or so, had steel lockets. There is also a rare type of scabbard which had an internal brass locket and chape entirely covered with the scabbard leather: some believe this to be the original type for this bayonet, but there is evidence suggesting it was made and issued in small numbers around 1895 - and the original blueprints show the first type, with exposed locket and chape. There are also two types of steel scabbard or "Aushilfsscheide" for this bayonet, evidently introduced during WW1. As for the official designation of this bayonet, the hyphen between Seiten-Gewehr was dropped sometime before December 1889, which is when the M for Modell was dropped, the bayonet becoming the Infanterie-Seitengewehr 71 abbreviated to I.S.71. In 1905 it became simply the Seitengewehr 71 or S.71, although Bavarian documents occasionally refer to it as the S.G.71, for Seitengewehr 71, as late as 1915. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 Hi Julian, where do regimental marked E.Willhelm Suhl made examples rank among makers? Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 With reference to the picture, it was included in David Nash's Imperial German Army Handbook, albeit cropped of titles, attributed to IWM collection. I think it very interesting as you say but not sure it shows S71's as you suggest. Now while I'm not totally sure, my thought is that the scabbard clearly shown appears slightly too short, slightly too wide and to have a slight curve and more likely is an M1864 U/M short sword. These seem to have been issued to artillery during the war. An example I have is marked on crossguard and scabbard 22.A.7.56. (7th battery suggests a wartime marking) it also has the remains of a previous reserve artillery marking R.A.III.4.3. Being so similar in design, identification on some period pics can be tricky. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2015 where do regimental marked E.Willhelm Suhl made examples rank among makers? Aaha! You mean the one I am interested in wrenching from your calloused hands? That would be telling! But I will - according to Carter, in 1993, and what I have noted, this is the third most common maker with 59, after Coppel and Gebr.Weysersburg... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2015 Don't know too much about this one... Been thinking about this one - the blade width looks right for a regular S.71, but would you measure it at the ricasso please to check that it is not a cadet version? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2015 With reference to the picture, it was included in David Nash's Imperial German Army Handbook, albeit cropped of titles, attributed to IWM collection. ... not sure it shows S71's as you suggest. .... the scabbard clearly shown appears slightly too short, slightly too wide and to have a slight curve and more likely is an M1864 U/M short sword. These seem to have been issued to artillery during the war. An example I have is marked on crossguard and scabbard 22.A.7.56. (7th battery suggests a wartime marking) it also has the remains of a previous reserve artillery marking R.A.III.4.3. Being so similar in design, identification on some period pics can be tricky. Thanks Rolyboy! Must have been a common postcard? Does Nash or the IWM have a date? I know what you mean about those long bayonets in the photograph... Are they S.71's or something else? I do freely confess to a lack of familiarity with the M1864 U/M, except for half-remembering that the East Asia Artillery were supplied with them in around 1890, and thinking they had a curved blade with a more curvaceous(!) grip . crossguard... So you could be right there. Personally, knowing the wide range of variations that were around in the mid- and late 19th century, it did cross my mind that these ones in the photograph were something other than a S.71, for example, with that apparently broad scabbard, were they Pfm M/71's? But, as you say, ID'ing from photographs is not always a reliable game. Your example sounds interesting - any chance of a photograph here for better elucidation? After all, it is a kind of older cousin, as it were, to the S.71! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 Been thinking about this one - the blade width looks right for a regular S.71, but would you measure it at the ricasso please to check that it is not a cadet version? Julian Measures (with calipers) exactly 28.00 at the ricasso. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 This photo from my personal collection shows elements of Kgl. Sächs. 1. Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.12 having breakfast during the withdrawal to the Siegfried-Stellung in March 1917. Note the bayonet (and Mauser C96) worn by the man with his back to the camera: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 October , 2015 Share Posted 16 October , 2015 That's an excellent shot, illustrating personal field equipment. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2015 Measures (with calipers) exactly 28.00 at the ricasso. Spot on! This photo from my personal collection shows elements of Kgl. Sächs. 1. Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.12 having breakfast during the withdrawal to the Siegfried-Stellung in March 1917. Note the bayonet (and Mauser C96) worn by the man with his back to the camera: Thanks, Andi - a nice and highly informative photograph. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 19 October , 2015 Share Posted 19 October , 2015 According to Kraus (Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907–1918) the personal armament of the Feldartillerie was as follows in the Royal Prussian Army at the beginning of 1914: Officers and senior NCOs (Portepee-Unteroffiziere) - artillery officers' sabre and pistol or revolver NCOs, drivers and other mounted ORs (e.g. gunners of horse artillery battalions) - artillery sabre and pistol or revolver Gunners (except in the horse artillery) - Seitengewehr U/M and pistol or revolver On 26.4.1914 the Prussians authorised dispatch riders, NCOs, mounted telephonists, trumpeters and horse-holders of Feldartillerie staffs to replace the artillery sabre with a Seitengewehr U/M. The remaining mounted personnel were authorised "das kurze Seitengewehr" (Seitengewehr U/M?) on 15.12.1916. In the three smaller armies the Seitengewehr U/M was replaced by the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 92 (Bavaria), Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71 (Saxony) and Artillerie-Faschinenmesser 75 (Württemberg). As I understand it the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71 was a version of the S71 with a solid hilt and no mechanism for attachment to a rifle. This weapon would appear to have been substituted in some cases (as per the photo above from Saxon FAR 12) with a standard S71, which is what I carry myself as a Saxon Feldartillerie reenactor. As per the above photo, I also carry a Mauser C96. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2015 According to Kraus (Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907–1918) the personal armament of the Feldartillerie was as follows in the Royal Prussian Army at the beginning of 1914 ... In the three smaller armies the Seitengewehr U/M was replaced by the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 92 (Bavaria), Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71 (Saxony) and Artillerie-Faschinenmesser 75 (Württemberg). Thanks Andi. It looks like he got this information from Friedag, p. 270, except Friedag gives for Württemberg the Kavellerie-Offiziersaebel or Artillerie Saebel, 'württembergischen Musters', and the Artillerie Faschinenmesser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2015 ... Seitengewehr U/M ... ... As I understand it the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71 was a version of the S71 with a solid hilt and no mechanism for attachment to a rifle. ... Perhaps useful to add, for clarification, that U/M = Umgeändertes Muster, and so "altered model/pattern". And so, how is it altered? Well, I freely confess that I know very little about pre-1871 Prussian, etc., weaponry. However I understand from what I have read (and at that perhaps not so diligently!), that the alteration came in two forms, both a re-hilting of an older pattern short sword, the M/64, in the one case with a solid grip, and in the other a rehilting to allow fitting to a rifle, at first for the needle-gun, and then later for the M.71. In this specific case, a Seitengewehr U/M for artillery, then - as I understand it, so corrections welcome - it would indeed be the artillery 'short sword', with an altered grip, but NOT to fit a rifle(?). And what I understand to be an example of one of these Seitengewehr U/M is discussed at: http://www.kukri.de/SeitengewehrUM-Preussen.pdf And, yes, looks like Rolyboy 11 (post no.9) was spot on with regard to that photograph! As for the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71, then as I understand it, this was apparently the remodeled Füsilier-Seitengewehr M/60, bushed to fit the M/71 rifle. See: http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/fsg1860/fsg1860ge.html Again, I welcome any corrections as I make no claims to be an expert on these bladed weapons, and my reading of non-archaeological German is still imperfect! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 20 October , 2015 Share Posted 20 October , 2015 As for the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71, then as I understand it, this was apparently the remodeled Füsilier-Seitengewehr M/60, bushed to fit the M/71 rifle. See: http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/fsg1860/fsg1860ge.html Again, I welcome any corrections as I make no claims to be an expert on these bladed weapons, and my reading of non-archaeological German is still imperfect! Thankyou for the correction - I freely admit to knowing even less about bayonets. The M/60 and M/71 look very similar, though I'm shocked to learn that the M/60 (and thus the Artillerie-Seitengewehr 71) was even longer than the M/71! I have found (my very good repro of) the M/71 impractically long as a reenactor - it always gets in the way when kneeling or crouching, whilst serving no very useful purpose in the absence of a rifle or carbine. Here's the clearest image I could find in my collection showing Kanoniere of the Saxon Feldartillerie with their bayonets drawn. These men are with the II. Ersatz-Abteilung of Kgl. Sächs. 3. Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.32 at their barracks in Riesa; the photo has a stamp on the back from this unit dated 10th November 1914. Note that the old peacetime uniform seen here - unlike that for all other German contingents - was dark green with red collar and cuffs (plus the usual Saxon peculiarities: red piping on the bottom edge of the skirt, square-cut rear pocket flaps and squared-off shoulder straps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 20 October , 2015 Share Posted 20 October , 2015 Sorry for the delay .... been away for a couple of days. Attached pic. example of type of sidearm in question. Looks like the one in the IWM picture which, by the way, is dated 'circa 1916'. Possibly just based on the wearing of steel helmets. Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 ... Attached pic. example of type of sidearm in question. Looks like the one in the IWM picture which, by the way, is dated 'circa 1916'. ... Belated thanks Rolyboy for showing that nice one. I am happy to agree that this is what those guys are probably wearing in that photograph in post no.1! Well, not the chaps with the 71/84's... Anyway, here is another one of my small collection of S.71, a rather rareish one, a W/76 by Clemen and Jung of Solingen. Carter recorded only 10 or so by this maker, a number which may or may not include the W/76 cadet version that SS showed in the original S.71 thread, at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160916&h. This one, though, has nice regimentals - "67.R.6.45", which as we all know by now would be the 67th in the Prussian system, and so the 4. Magdeburgisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.67, and this one is the 6.Kompagnie's Waffe 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 And one last unit-marked example of mine, a W/74 by Gebr.Weyersburg of Solingen. A reasonably prolific maker with a peak year in 1874, Carter giving 28 or so. The markings here are: "107.R.E.3.193", for 107 Infanterie-Regiment-Ersatz-Bataillon 3.Kompagnie Waffe 193, which is Kgl. Sächs. 8. Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Johann Georg Nr.107. Nice if macabre feature of this one are the 'shrapnel' scars on the crossguard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donbogen Posted 16 August , 2019 Share Posted 16 August , 2019 Heres my S71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 16 August , 2019 Share Posted 16 August , 2019 The Brass Battalion, will do a large post later, have to sort a lot of pic's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now