Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

1908 British Cavalry sword


Khaki

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I have just become the proud owner of a Wilkinson sword 08 Cavalry sword with the black gryphonite grip.

I believe from the markings and my limited internet research into the weapon that it is an 08 pattern potentially manufactured in 1910.

I think the markings on the scabbard indicate it as weapon 657 of the 5th Dragoon Corps.

I was wondering if anyone could confirm this and explain the rest of the markings on the blade and scabbard. I think some are acceptance marks for the year.

Can anyone also tell me how I can clean up the sword and scabbard, or if indeed I should!

Does the dent in the scabbard look like a bullet strike to you?

This is the first and only weapon I have owned but it has really piqued my interest!

20170305_164139.jpg

20170305_164412.jpg

20170305_164418.jpg

20170305_164434.jpg

20170305_164443.jpg

20170305_164651.jpg

20170305_164658.jpg

20170305_164704.jpg

20170305_164726.jpg

20170305_172623.jpg

20170305_172532.jpg

Edited by KevF
Spelling mistakes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kev, I know nothing about weapons (although it does look nice), but I suspect it's 'DG' for 5th Dragoon Guards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deleted. 

Edited by seaforth78
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2017 at 20:29, KevF said:

... I believe from the markings and my limited internet research into the weapon that it is an 08 pattern potentially manufactured in 1910. I think the markings on the scabbard indicate it as weapon 657 of the 5th Dragoon Corps. ...I was wondering if anyone could confirm this and explain the rest of the markings on the blade and scabbard. I think some are acceptance marks for the year. ... Can anyone also tell me how I can clean up the sword and scabbard, or if indeed I should! ...it has really piqued my interest!

20170305_164139.jpg

20170305_164412.jpg

 

20170305_164434.jpg

 

 

I bet it has piqued your interest! I am NOT a sword buff, but the following might help - and will be corrected sharpish if wrong!

 

First off, yes, '5.D.G.' is correct for the 5th Dragoon Guards according to the 1904 regulations on unit marking of weapons, and so 657 is the weapon number (well, the scabbard number). I don't know what the 'R' is on the older '5.D.G.' marking, but the lined-oot '15' shows that this scabbard originally went with sword no. 15, and it was used for no. 657 at a later date.

 

It does indeed look to be made in 1910, if that is what the '10' on the blade spine marking is, but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that... The 'EFD' means it was made at Enfield, and the crowned no. 75 and E indcates it was inspected by Inspector no, 75. He also marked the ricasso twice, for first and second inspection - I know how bayonet inspection markings went and on that basis the lower one is the initial acceptance ready for finishing, the top one for final acceptance.

 

BUT, this one has been around a bit! Lots of 're-issue' markings there! So it was in for 'looking at' in at least (19)11,, (19)13, and (19)14 - but I can't work out the last one, ending with an '0', - with new Inspector marks added each time.

 

Hope this helps until somebody else with better knowledge can verify or blast me out of the water!

 

Trajan 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congratulations Kev,

 

Nice looking piece, having seen a lot of bullet holes and dents over the years, that's what first came to mind when I saw the photo, lucky trooper and horse.

 

khaki

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, trajan said:

 

I bet it has piqued your interest! I am NOT a sword buff, but the following might help - and will be corrected sharpish if wrong!

 

First off, yes, '5.D.G.' is correct for the 5th Dragoon Guards according to the 1904 regulations on unit marking of weapons, and so 657 is the weapon number (well, the scabbard number). I don't know what the 'R' is on the older '5.D.G.' marking, but the lined-oot '15' shows that this scabbard originally went with sword no. 15, and it was used for no. 657 at a later date.

 

It does indeed look to be made in 1910, if that is what the '10' on the blade spine marking is, but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that... The 'EFD' means it was made at Enfield, and the crowned no. 75 and E indcates it was inspected by Inspector no, 75. He also marked the ricasso twice, for first and second inspection - I know how bayonet inspection markings went and on that basis the lower one is the initial acceptance ready for finishing, the top one for final acceptance.

 

BUT, this one has been around a bit! Lots of 're-issue' markings there! So it was in for 'looking at' in at least (19)11,, (19)13, and (19)14 - but I can't work out the last one, ending with an '0', - with new Inspector marks added each time.

 

Hope this helps until somebody else with better knowledge can verify or blast me out of the water!

 

Trajan 

 

 

2 hours ago, trajan said:

 

I bet it has piqued your interest! I am NOT a sword buff, but the following might help - and will be corrected sharpish if wrong!

 

First off, yes, '5.D.G.' is correct for the 5th Dragoon Guards according to the 1904 regulations on unit marking of weapons, and so 657 is the weapon number (well, the scabbard number). I don't know what the 'R' is on the older '5.D.G.' marking, but the lined-oot '15' shows that this scabbard originally went with sword no. 15, and it was used for no. 657 at a later date.

 

It does indeed look to be made in 1910, if that is what the '10' on the blade spine marking is, but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that... The 'EFD' means it was made at Enfield, and the crowned no. 75 and E indcates it was inspected by Inspector no, 75. He also marked the ricasso twice, for first and second inspection - I know how bayonet inspection markings went and on that basis the lower one is the initial acceptance ready for finishing, the top one for final acceptance.

 

BUT, this one has been around a bit! Lots of 're-issue' markings there! So it was in for 'looking at' in at least (19)11,, (19)13, and (19)14 - but I can't work out the last one, ending with an '0', - with new Inspector marks added each time.

 

Hope this helps until somebody else with better knowledge can verify or blast me out of the water!

 

Trajan 

Thanks Trajan every bit of information helps and you definitely know more than me! 

I like the fact it has been around-  a little more interest about its life in service! 

 

Hi all,

I have just become the proud owner of a Wilkinson sword 08 Cavalry sword with the black gryphonite grip.

I believe from the markings and my limited internet research into the weapon that it is an 08 pattern potentially manufactured in 1910.

I think the markings on the standard indicate it as weapon 657 of the 5th Dragoon Corps.

I was wondering if anyone could explain the rest of the markings on the blade and standard. I think some are acceptance marks for the year.

Can anyone also tell me how I can clean up the sword and standard, or if indeed I should!

Does the dent in the scabbard look like a bullet strike to you?

This is the first and only weapon I have owned but it has really piqued my interest!

On Sunday, March 05, 2017 at 18:19, seaforth78 said:

Deleted. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Khaki I can't get it to show on the photo but the dent does have a slight rounded point in the indentation so I thought it could be a slow moving bullet as I believe a shot from close range would have pierced the scabbard-  lucky horse and rider indeed!

Edited by KevF
Spelling mistake
Link to comment
Share on other sites

KevF,

 

If you go to post no. 15 on this thread, you will find a description of an identical weapon it the Imperial War Museum.  They refer to to the black grip as 'dermatine'.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike, I had missed that when browsing this thread - not sure where I got the term gryphonite from - I may have made it up (doubtful I'm not that clever)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, KevF said:

Thanks Khaki I can't get it to show on the photo but the dent does have a slight rounded point in the indentation so I thought it could be a slow moving bullet as I believe a shot from close range would have pierced the scabbard-  lucky horse and rider indeed!

I noticed the rounded shape of the indentation, I think that it may have been caused by either a shrapnel ball, a spent bullet, a ricochet deformed bullet,  a tumbling bullet (least likely) with the shrapnel ball being the most likely candidate.

regards

 

khaki

Edited by Khaki
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike following some further reading apparently the griphonite is the black handle which was on the early models and the dermatine was the brown handle which followed this on later models.

I can't confirm how accurate this information is but that is what I have found.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I looked up dermatine and it was defined as 'skin related' which I presume was intended to give a secure non slip surface to the grip the same as what we used to call shark or ray skin.

 

khaki

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

What are your opinions on wether I should clean this sword up?

I don't know whether it is best to keep the patina it has aquired over the years or restore it to some of its former glory?

If i was to clean it up what is the best way to do this - spray it in WD-40 or similar and wipe away the rust it releases or a different method?

So many questions I'm a complete amateur!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KevF

 

I have a British 1821 Light pattern cavalry sword, a bargain buy that at some point in the past had suffered from heavy corrosion.  It will never be a 'good' example, I rubbed the blade and bowl guard with very fine wire wool, with a liberal dose of light machine oil.  This took some time and patience but revealed the blade etchings, spine marking and original suppliers name and address none of which could be seen clearly previously.  The pitting is still present, but it now at least looks respectable, albeit at a distance!

Think that the guard and blade of yours would respond well to similar treatment, once the surface rust is gone keep lightly oiled or waxed.

DO NOT be tempted to use anything too abrasive.

 

Mike.

 

Edited by MikeyH
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike, I think I'll give it a light clean when I get chance and see if this will uncover further markings as I think there are some markings on the guard that I can't read due to the corrosion, what I don't want to do is damage the weapon in any way as it is my own (first but probably not last) piece of "history in my hand"

 

I've also found out the Dragoons museum is in my home city of York so I'm going in to see if I can find out any more, about the 5th Dragoon guards in WW1 and also if they hold anything like weapon issue records (unlikely I think, but you never know). I'm certainly enjoying the new knowledge this purchase is bringing me and the learning journey it is taking me on

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

MikeyH  has good advice; it is very easy to destroy the patina of the weapon, degrading its history and value.  Use #0000 steel wool and light oil, and proceed with caution.

Ken 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to use a very fine penetrating oil and after letting it soak into the rust overnight, I would then gently scrape away the rust with the edge of a  real copper coin. Laborious, yes,  but it does work, I had a Sharps carbine with a rusty barrel, careful work removed the rust and revealed a nicely blued barrel.

 

khaki

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you tell us the markings that are partially covered by the leather washer ?

Looks like 8 '1?; is there anything else buried there, on either side ?

Regards,

JMB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks gentlemen

 

JMB this is a picture of the rest of the markings with the leather washer removed a 3 and '10 there is another marking in the top corner but I can't make it out I will have to clean it up to see it. Nothing else in any of the other sides of the blade

Kev

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KevF,

Thanks for the extra photo, which appears to show the initial acceptance as 3 '10, AND a re-inspection in'10,

Interesting!

Khaki & Kev,

The P. '08 is reckoned to be a very fine cavalry sword; how does it balance/feel/handle ?

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited by JMB1943
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi JMB-  although I have no reference point as this is the only sword I own, the balance feels very neutral to me and the thumb grip makes it feel ideal as a skewering weapon to be used in place of a lance.

It feels good in the hand and very comfortable to grip

Kev

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

Hello all, l I am new to the forum and amazed at the wealth of information here. Can someone help me identify the unit this 1908 British Pattern saber was issued too? On the inside top of the handguard is the following engraving 10.29, RC.S. 12. on top of the base of the blade is P, under is C and at the bottom 8. Right under the base of the Blade, there is a Capital C with the British  Broad Arrow inside.  The scabbard has the Canadian symbol star emblem on it.  I have tried to identify R C.S. and what cavalry unit that could be but to date I have been unsuccessful.  The other thing of interest about this saber is the inside of the handguard still has some of the drab paint which the majority was removed from a past owner. I can not see a period in front of the R but the two periods are very noticeable in front of the C and S.   Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might have better luck starting a new thread, with some pictures of your sword rather than resurrecting a year old thread. the spine should be stamped with '08 indicating the model of blade. I could be stamped P'08. The C surrounding a broad arrow is the Canadian government mark. The star may be two broad arrows point to point. That is the Sold out of Service mark, meaning the sword was released from government ownership. Pictures would help a great deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...