1908 British Cavalry sword

[Khaki]

khaki,

Your blade markings, are made up of those also shown on Bob's blades.

The Canadian, Land Service mark ( a Broad Arrow within a Capital C ) was I think introduced in 1907, so it should be tucked away somewhere on your cavalry sword ? it is sometimes hard to spot.

Regards,

LF

Just had a close look using a jewelers loupe, and found some tiny stampings on the inside of the upper lip of the guard, again there is LSH and also appears to be a 13 next to a large C with what I presume is the arrow within, although the arrow appears to be on its side but might be the illusion caused by a bad stamping.

thanks

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Just had a close look using a jewelers loupe, and found some tiny stampings on the inside of the upper lip of the guard, again there is LSH and also appears to be a 13 next to a large C

khaki,

In addition to the ' Broad Arrow within a C ' mark, there were several others, including a capital ' C ' with a small ' Broad Arrow ' above, this was the ' Dominion of Canada ' ownership mark.

The title ' Dominion of Canada ' was used from 1867 to WW2, so it is possible your sword has the Dominon of Canada ownership mark, if it is not the small Board Arrow within the capital C.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

​

Bob, in case you are unaware your sword as shown above was made by Sanderson Bros & Neubold of Sheffield. (As indicated by the less commonly seen SB&N marking)

Cheers, S>S

[robins2]

Bob, in case you are unaware your sword as shown above was made by Sanderson Bros & Neubold of Sheffield. (As indicated by the less commonly seen SB&N marking)

Cheers, S>S

Thanks for that S>S, my knowledge of sword/bayonet markings is very limited, so its always great to have someone like yourself to provide expert information

regards

Bob

[calibre792x57.y]

Re polished swords. This was the normal finish for peace-time soldiering in the British Army, but for the campaigns in the Sudan, South Africa and the GW they were painted in a drab brown, often of a purplish colour. A few from the 1914 period are found in a drab green shade, but most of these green painted examples were those issued the Belgian Army, possibly post- War I think. I am referring to issue swords. Officers often carried trooper's weapons on campaign instead of risking their expensive private purchase models. - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

Here is my P.'08 which I bought from a farmer on the Somme a long time ago. It is painted a drab brown overall, only the blade being bright. - Note how the right side of the bowl has had the paint rubbed away by the movement of the saddlery and the unprotected steel gone rusty. The scabbard shows the same wear in usage. The sword was Enfield made and is dated 7 15. No unit marks. SW

[Khaki]

A very nice example showing original paint work, just how I like to see them. very nice

khaki

[Khaki]

Just for comparison, here is the US p1913 cavalry sword better known as the "Patton Saber".

khaki

[Khaki]

left one off, sorry now you get the point

khaki

[aussiesoldier]

My P08 is in fact an Indian P08, designated IP08. Scabbard and guard are both painted green, however, I think this is a more recent repaint.

[Khaki]

My P08 is in fact an Indian P08, designated IP08. Scabbard and guard are both painted green, however, I think this is a more recent repaint.

Is there any difference with an Indian pattern? can you post some pictures please?

thanks

khaki

[aussiesoldier]

G'day mate,

The Army of India variant of the 1908 sword featured a smaller grip to match the generally smaller hands of cavalry troopers recruited in the sub-continent. Note that the key differences between the P'08 and the IP'08 were that the pommel was smaller and had a slot set into it (rather than a groove cut under it) to accommodate the end of the knucklebow portion of the guard. Also the grip was slightly shorter, and the guard did not have the elongated teardrop-shaped reinforcing plate at the junction of blade and hilt. It replaces the rubberized plastic Dermatine with a cross-hatched walnut grip 6.75 inches in length. It is a March 1923 manufacture with Enfield inspection marks.

Often see these advertised as the short version - no such thing.

[calibre792x57.y]

The Patt.'08 wasn't the only British pattern to see service in the GW. Here is a Pattern 1885 sabre which has seen a good deal of service and is profusely stamped with dates and unit markings. It was manufactured by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum et Cie whose trademark appears on the ricasso with the date 04/86. This is I think the last Pattern to be made by a German firm under contract as hereafter the contracts went to British firms or to Government manufacturies.The first use seems to be with the 6th Dragoon Guards - marked 6/DG/268 on the scabbard which is struck thro'. On the reverse of the scabbard is 4H 578 (4th Hussars) which is repeated on the tang of the grip. Then on the scabbard is 8H104 (8th Hussars) but this again struck through. Above is a date - 2/1900. This may refer to use with one of the other marked units of course as it is a regimental armourer's mark applied when the weapon came on the strength. The most interesting mark for the GW forum is inside the bowl behind the grip, ' 2 10' above N.D.M.B./A.S.C./1. The sword has been polished, but not very thoroughly as in the nooks and crannies around the grip are small areas of the Cavalry Service Brown paint of the purplish tint.. Since the paint was applied for campaign service it must post date 1910 otherwise it would have been completely polished away in service, no trooper would be allowed to get away with patches of paint on his sword.! Now I have this last mark as 'Notts & Derby Mounted Brigade of the Army Service Corps so I believe this is another GW sword, albeit not frontline service. Does any forum member know better, or can some one confirm my reading of the unit? - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

The whole thing. - SW

[Khaki]

As with Sommewalkers 'also used' here a couple of comparative swords, namely the US M1860 Light Cavalry saber and the US M1906 saber, essentially two very similar swords with the exception of the guards, brass for the M1860 and Iron for the m1906, there are also slight variations in the scabbards. I don't know whether either saw GW service, but the 1860 certainly saw the US Civil War, Indian Campaigns and also the Spanish American War, the M1906 probably saw service on the Mexican Border 1916 maybe also the Patton sword of my previous post. Like all semi obsolete hardware its hard to determine how much combat service they were used in or were so much extra baggage.

The m1906 does have a scabbard but was too awkward to remove from display.

thanks

khaki

[Khaki]

G'day mate,

The Army of India variant of the 1908 sword featured a smaller grip to match the generally smaller hands of cavalry troopers recruited in the sub-continent. Note that the key differences between the P'08 and the IP'08 were that the pommel was smaller and had a slot set into it (rather than a groove cut under it) to accommodate the end of the knucklebow portion of the guard. Also the grip was slightly shorter, and the guard did not have the elongated teardrop-shaped reinforcing plate at the junction of blade and hilt. It replaces the rubberized plastic Dermatine with a cross-hatched walnut grip 6.75 inches in length. It is a March 1923 manufacture with Enfield inspection marks.

Often see these advertised as the short version - no such thing.

Thanks aussiesoldier,

An interesting and important variant. your description is very useful,

regards

khaki

[aussiesoldier]

Sommewalker,

I also own a similarly marked 1885 that was issued to the was made in 1886 and was issued to the 13th Hussars (D squadron, weapon #33) in Sept. of 1888, and retested by armourers before then passed on to the Hertfordshire Yeomanry (weapon 58) in August of 1893. I have attached a photograph from their regiment record that apparently shows a trooper on horse equipped with a P1885 in 1915!!!

The 1885s would have been very old hat by 1914. The 1899 (pictured below) would have been issued to front line units from 1900 to 1909-10 when they would have been replaced by P08s and the 1899s should have been passed down to Yeomanry regiments. There were still a very few front line regiments that entered the war with these swords as they were posted overseas in August 1914 but had them replaced as soon as practical.

FYI

George

[aussiesoldier]

Khaki,

The Patton was carried into battle by the US Second Dragoons in 1918. "Second Dragoons distinguished themselves. In April 1918, a scant three weeks after leaving the United States, the Second Cavalry found itself landed in France in the Toul sector. After being initially deployed to perform military police duties and to manage horse remount depots, the Regiment was the only American unit used as horse cavalry during the war. A provisional squadron formed by Troops B, D, F, and H was the last element of the Regiment ever to engage the enemy as mounted horse cavalry.

The final Allied offensive, the Meuse-Argonne campaign lasted from 26 September to 11 November 1918. The Second Cavalry was attached to the American 35th Division, playing an important role as the left flank element of eight divisions and later as the main effort between the Meuse River and the Argonne Forest. The men from the Regiment were commended for "...accomplishing their tasks with fearlessness, courage, and disregard for danger and hardship.

History of the Second United States Cavalry Part 7: 1898 to today, The Dragoons ride on. (http://www.angelfire.com/va3/dragoons/HistoryPart_7.htm)

[Khaki]

Thanks aussiesoldier,

Very interesting read and photograph, information I wasn't aware of.

khaki

[seaforth78]

Officers often carried trooper's weapons on campaign instead of risking their expensive private purchase models. - SW

Not true at all I'm afraid. I have 20 examples of both 1821 LC and 1896 HC officer's not to mention infantry officers swords including one to a VC winner all named to several officers, indeed one to a nephew of FM French and I could assure you were all sharpened for active service and have been able acquire photographs of my subjects showing the same exact sword. The swords were indeed a private purchase like all their kit but it would have been unthinkable for an officer to put his sword away and take up a troopers sword instead for fear of damaging it. Needless to say, this also applies to the officers 1912 cavalry sword.

[Guest]

Sommewalker,

I also own a similarly marked 1885 that was issued to the was made in 1886 and was issued to the 13th Hussars (D squadron, weapon #33) in Sept. of 1888, and retested by armourers before then passed on to the Hertfordshire Yeomanry (weapon 58) in August of 1893. I have attached a photograph from their regiment record that apparently shows a trooper on horse equipped with a P1885 in 1915!!!

The 1885s would have been very old hat by 1914. The 1899 (pictured below) would have been issued to front line units from 1900 to 1909-10 when they would have been replaced by P08s and the 1899s should have been passed down to Yeomanry regiments. There were still a very few front line regiments that entered the war with these swords as they were posted overseas in August 1914 but had them replaced as soon as practical.

George

George

There are around 60,000 reasons why 1885 and 1889 pattern swords would have been very common in 1914 and 1915 and even as late as early 1916.

Following the Boer War the Yeomanry were not armed with swords. In the inter-war period (Boer War- Great War) the debates that raged with regards to the Arme Blanche saw the Cavalry lose their lances (for a short period) and the Yeomanry lose their swords (except a few for ceremonial purposes). On mobilisation the Yeomanry were given swords and in all recorded cases I have seen these were patterns that pre-dated the 1908 pattern sword.

There were 55 Yeomanry regiments (plus three Special Reserve Cavalry), each with an establishment of around 550. The Yeomanry all raised second line units when they deployed overseas, meaning some 110 regiments each 550 strong required swords; 30,000 swords were required in Aug 1914 for mobilisation and a further 30,000 for the second line Yeomanry Regiments whose role was Home defence. The supporting mounted arms in the Yeomanry Mouted Brigades (RHA, RSC etc) would also require some swords.. This is why earlier patterns were really quite common in 1914. There is a photo of the Belper Troop of the 1/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry mobilising at a railway station with the SNCO carrying an old pattern sword. The photo is taken on or around 5th Aug 1914. Almost every Yeomanry photo that can be pinned to 1914-15 shows them with the old pattern. The few exceptions might be the handful of Yeomanry regiments that served with the BEF in late 1914, although I have not seen any evidence they were given the latest pattern before embarking - QOOH, Northumberland Hussars, etc.

I am certain that the twelve Regiments that formed the 2nd Mtd Div TF disembarked in Egypt in April 1915 with swords made in the late 1880s. A further 16 Yeomanry Regiments depolyed to Egypt and the Dardanelles, the last returning in Jan 1916 to Egypt. 28 Regiments in total, or close to 50% of the Yeomanry first lines. The first opportunity for some of these last units to even see the 1908 pattern was as late as Feb 1916 when they were re-fitted.

MG

[Khaki]

Would it have really mattered if they were still carrying older pattern swords as long as they were proficient with them, indeed issuing a totally new pattern sword, wouldn't that have involved significant retraining on a large scale?

khaki

[Guest]

Would it have really mattered if they were still carrying older pattern swords as long as they were proficient with them, indeed issuing a totally new pattern sword, wouldn't that have involved significant retraining on a large scale?

khaki

The Yeomanry had hardly any training with the sword before the first units deployed (QOOH Sep 1914). Its published history almost takes pride in just how amateurish the regiment was on mobilization.

The Yeomanry had trained under the Yeomanry and Mounted Infantry Training Manual, and in Sep 1914 had to change to the Cavalry Training Manual as Yeomanry began to become embedded with Cavalry Brigades on the Western Front. Pre-war each Yeomanry regiment only had a few swords for ceremonial purposes. When the 2nd Mouted Div paraded in Sep 1914 in front of the King at Churn (arguably one of the largest mounted parades on British soil) the rank and file did not carry swords. This might simply reflect the shortages at the time of any type of sword for the massed Yeomanry. MG

[Khaki]

George

There are around 60,000 reasons why 1885 and 1889 pattern swords would have been very common in 1914 and 1915 and even as late as early 1916.

Following the Boer War the Yeomanry were not armed with swords. In the inter-war period (Boer War- Great War) the debates that raged with regards to the Arme Blanche saw the Cavalry lose their lances (for a short period) and the Yeomanry lose their swords (except a few for ceremonial purposes). On mobilisation the Yeomanry were given swords and in all recorded cases I have seen these were patterns that pre-dated the 1908 pattern sword.

MG

Yes, you made that clear in your first paragraph which I did read, but obviously didn't absorb, sorry for that.

khaki

[agedpink1]

Belper Station 5th August 1914