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Remembered Today:

1908 British Cavalry sword


Khaki

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I was lucky enough to find a VGC pattern 1908 trooper sword & scabbard made by Enfield and dated 1.11 and unit marked as follows, A separate from the rest F (partial stamp) should read A F G H lined out and also C L S H and A also number 105 (sword rack/issue number?)

any thoughts on abbreviations?

khaki

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I was lucky enough to find a VGC pattern 1908 trooper sword & scabbard made by Enfield and dated 1.11 and unit marked as follows, A separate from the rest F (partial stamp) should read A F G H lined out and also C L S H and A also number 105 (sword rack/issue number?)

khaki,

With your being in the States, there was a good chance your sword/sabre crossed the border from Canada, and your regimental markings are probably ' F.G.H. ' The Fort Gary Horse, and ' L.S.H. ' for Lord Strathcona's Horse, both regiments tying in with previously belonging to a mounted Trooper.

Regards,

LF

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Thanks LF, I can always count on you coming up with interesting details, I had wondered about India?, but your interpretation makes perfect sense.

many thanks

regards

khaki :thumbsup:

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I would go with the Canadian attribution!

All the best,

Gary

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Definitely Fort Garry Horse and Lord Strathcona's Horse, The FGH are now disbanded , Strathcona's are still an active Regiment now based out of Edmonton, Alberta, now LDSH (RC) (Royal Canadians), both Regiments served in WW1, winning a couple of VC's

Lt Flowerdew V.C. (LSH) led one of the last Calvary charges of the 1st war at Mouriel Wood.

I have a similar LSH sword marked B LSH 56, there should also be a C with broad arrow stamped on Hilt ,unfortunately my scabbard is stamped with RCHA

a good find

regards

Bob R.

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Just as a 'matter arising' what was the official designation of the British cavalry P1908 sword ?, was it classified as a saber ?

khaki

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Just as a 'matter arising' what was the official designation of the British cavalry P1908 sword ?, was it classified as a saber ?

khaki

khaki,

It was known officially as the " Sword, cavalry, pattern 1908 ".

Regards,

LF

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It's truly amazing in my opinion that the British Army introduced a new cavalry sword in 1908.

It was, again in my opinion, probably the best side arm that British cavalry had ever been equipped with but had the powers that be not spotted the rise of the machine gun? Or even the firepower provided by the SMLE in the hands of well trained soldiers? The latter, oddly enough, proved by dismounted cavalry in the retreat from Moms.

BTW, although I really collect guns, a 1908 has always been on my list - at the right price of course. :-)

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I know that some are interested in display techniques and I always try and keep it simple using material at hand, here is an example with the P08 sword. I used a common forked wall tool hook the type you might hang garden tools on. In this case the hooks were an exact fit for the two scabbard rings on the P08 and the arms are covered in ' rubber? and are slightly raised at the tips for a secure hold. I mounted that on a plain small plaque that I had previously bought at a 'craft' store. By using that it allowed for the large guard of the sword keeping it free of the wall and adding a little more depth.

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post-29707-0-88100000-1444933529_thumb.j

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hand towel not included.

regards all

khaki

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Just finished hanging it on the wall, it only arrived yesterday,

khaki,

Looks good, enjoy having it in your collection.

Here is a write-up which accompanies the Imperial War Museum's example :-

" The Pattern 1908 cavalry sword was the last new sword design accepted for service in the British Army. The design had its origins in complaints received about the effectiveness of existing swords during the Boer War. A committee was set up to select an improved pattern. The outcome was revolutionary in concept, as it featured a thin, tapering blade, intended entirely for thrusting. The sword was superbly designed, having perfect balance in the hand and an unusual 'pistol' type grip, which automatically brought the sword into thrusting position when correctly gripped. The sword proved successful in the mounted actions in which it was employed during the First World War.

Physical description

Large pommel [described variously as steel or malleable cast iron] oval cap with aperture revealing the threaded tang end and slotted tang nut. Long pistol-shaped grip in black dermatine, angled and swelling towards the pommel. The sides of the grip are chequered as is the deep depression, for thumb, immediately behind the ferrule. Remainder of back plain.Large well curved bowl guard in sheet steel, having a maximum width of 140 mm [5.5 ins], a sword knot slit near pommel and tapered oval [near triangular or inverted tear drop] shaped reinforce plate at base of blade. Narrow, straight thrusting blade which tapers to small double-edged spear point, back flat. A narrow and deep single fuller on each flat starts approximately 27 mm from guard and extends to within 145 mm of tip, fuller stops curve-pointed. Note the serration at either edge of the shoulder - designed to retain the buff piece [this feature was introduced in 1911]. Polished steel scabbard with wide flared mouthpiece insert secured by single screw (when present) through either edge. In place of bands and loose rings the accessory has two fixed and opposite loops on narrow rectangular seatings at either edge below throat. Straight body tapers gradually to plain gently rounded toe. "

Regards,

LF

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IMGP0932_zps4brjmnuu.jpgIMGP0931_zps1vz372rq.jpgIMGP0933_zps6vml0bfd.jpg​ I note your sword/scabbard appear to be painted?? I'm not sure if this one was originally painted but it was certainly polished up when I got it

regards Bob R.

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IMGP0939_zpsfneod07j.jpgIMGP0937_zpsuq2c5mr3.jpgIMGP0936_zpsl0rzpt8y.jpgIMGP0935_zpsrmxmy4im.jpg hope you do not mind my posting mine for comparirsome

purposes (plus trying to master the art of posting photos from photo bucket) regards Bob R.

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Hello Bob,

Thanks for posting your photo's, I enjoyed seeing them, they came out very clear. I never mind comparisons, it's the same as buying a reference book or visiting a museum, enjoyment of the hobby is what's important in the end. You have a nice sword and scabbard there, my scabbard is not painted, it's just the poor lighting. When did they start using the broad arrow 'C' in Canada, I have had a good look at mine and it doesn't have it ?

regards

khaki

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C broad arrow was used throughout the 1st war and maybe as early as the Boer war, not sure of date when first used, will have to dig that up or some other pal may know, the LSH is of particular interest to me as I served 10 years with the Regiment.

regards

Bob

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​ hope you do not mind my posting mine

robins2,

This is a Sword, cavalry, pattern 1908, Mark 1* nicely marked to the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery.

The blade markings shown in the top right photograph are, from top to bottom :-

1* - this is the sword's pattern variation, originally this pattern of cavalry sword was the Mark I, and then in 1912 it became the Mark 1* following various modifications being made to the sword and the scabbard, such as waterproofing the scabbard's liner etc, these modifications being shown in the List of Changes, Para 16089 introduced on 8th August, 1912, which came into effect in September 1912.

^ - the ' Broad Arrow ' showing Government ownership.

EFD - the Enfield maker's mark.

Crown/VS - the Inspector's mark.

'12 - Year of issue 1912.

>< - 2 Broad Arrows tip to tip - this marking shows that the sword had been ' Sold Out of Service ' i.e. it was no longer Government property.

Regards,

LF

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Bob,

The markings on your Lord Strathcona's Horse sword are the same as those on your RCHA sword, with the addition of :-

X - this is the blade ' bend test ' mark to show the blade has successfully undergone bend testing.

6 '18 - issue date, June 1918.

Crown1D/E - Enfield Inspector's marks.

Broad Arrow within C - Canada, Land Service mark.

56 - sword's serial number.

LSH - Lord Strathcona's Horse regimental mark.

Regards,

LF

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I couldn't find a 'C' broad arrow, but plenty of other stamps as you can see.

khaki,

Your blade markings, are made up of those also shown on Bob's blades.

The Canadian, Land Service mark ( a Broad Arrow within a Capital C ) was I think introduced in 1907, so it should be tucked away somewhere on your cavalry sword ? it is sometimes hard to spot.

Regards,

LF

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From top to bottom of the attached image:
The British P08
The Spanish Puerto Seguro 1907
The French Dragoon Mle 1854 (still used during WW1)
The Prussian M1889

Some thoughts on the question of timing of the P1908. The British cavalry was unhappy with the performance of the P1899 cavalry sword. The Pattern 1899 was intended for cut-and-thrust and suffered from the defects of all such compromise patterns. Its shortcomings were immediately apparent and at the end of the Boer War, at the Royal Commission established to enquire into the conduct of the War, Sir John French, the cavalry commander, stated that; “I think the present cavalry sword is the very worst that could possibly be used by mounted troops. I am trying to get it altered”. Not surprisingly, therefore, they changed designs and came up with the straight thrusting blade.

By the early 20th century, it was generally recognized that cavalry sabres were more effective as thrusting weapons rather than cutting weapons, and the cavalry sabre designs of all the major powers reflected this. The M1907 Puerto-Seguro sword (named after his designer Captain Luis de Carvajal, Marquis of Puerto-Seguro) was the last combat sword issued to the Spanish cavalry. (Spanish Sword blade = 41 inches long overall) Originally designed in 1907 it did not enter wide scale production until 1918. It served not only in the North of Africa, but also in the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). There are action reports that show it was put into use in some charges and pursuits, to great effect, particularly the As late as 1930, Spanish cavalry regulations put every stress in getting as close as possible to the enemy to engage a sword fighting. The M1907 Puerto-Seguro sword was the last combat sword issued to the Spanish cavalry.

The last massive charge of Spanish cavalry was held in July 23rd, 1921, when the 10th Alcantara Regiment (Cazadores a caballo) was ordered to cover a disastrous retreat of demoralized Spanish infantry, near Mount Arruit in Morocco, in a narrow valley while crossing the Igan River. Of the 226 men who had started the third day started the day, only 46 survived till sunset. These repeated charges with sword in hand led to the ultimate destruction of the Regiment, however, their mission of the day was accomplished and the Spanish retreating forces reached their destination.

Again, on 5 February,1936. Franco’s forces launched a major offensive towards the Alfambra river, along a front of 30 kilometres. The attack started with a massive cavalry charge of the Monasterio’s division.

I have a copy of both and they handle well. Most of you will know of the use of the P08 in combat but I hope the story of the Spanish M9107 widens your appreciation for the cavalry sword in battle. Hope this adds to our bank of knowledge.

George

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L.F & aussiesoldier

thank you for the summary / ID and the information on the Spanish version, very interesting

regards

Bob R.

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