What Evidence of Death is required for a Possible Non-Commemoration

[chrisharley9]

Hello Steve,

He has been accepted.

Cheers

Chris

[SteveE]

Chris

Many thanks for putting George forward, on my behalf, for commemoration and for letting me know the positive result.

RIP George Owen

Steve

[PPF]

Prehaps contacting the Regimental Museum or veterans of the British Royal Legion can be helpful...

[KevinBattle]

1) George HAS been accepted;

2) It's the Royal British Legion

3) They don't have to be veterans to join

[PPF]

Good work!

[John_Hartley]

A question for SteveE and/or Chris Harley - did the documentary evidence that Steve had (medal roll and effects register) suffice for the NAM and CWGC, or was it possible to discover other documentation?

John

[stevem49]

Probably death cert once he was put forward. That is the usual proof.

Steve

[SteveE]

A question for SteveE and/or Chris Harley - did the documentary evidence that Steve had (medal roll and effects register) suffice for the NAM and CWGC, or was it possible to discover other documentation?

John

There's a link on the OP of this thread that'll take you to another thread about George Owen on which I listed all of the documentation submitted to CWGC, on my behalf, by Chris. I don't know whether it was the whole package or just constituent parts of it that were sufficient for acceptance. Suffice to say he was accepted for commemoration without a death certificate or SDGW entry.

Steve

[SteveE]

John

Just for completeness, rather than having to go off and look elsewhere, here's the full list of 'evidence' submitted for George Owen's commemoration;

1. Soldiers Effects Register Entry (Record No.: 704333, Registry No.: E/617518/1) stating KIA 18/10/1917.

2. Medal Index Card (George Owen, GS/13699, Private & Sergeant, 25th Royal Fusiliers) stating KIA 18/10/1917.

3. 1914/1915 Star Medal Roll Entry (G. Owen, 13699, Private, 25th Royal Fusiliers. National Archives Ref.: WO329/2634 Page 25) stating KIA 18/10/1917.

4. British War & Victory Medal Roll Entry (George Owen, GS/13699, Sergeant, 25th Royal Fusiliers. National Archives Ref.: WO329/764 Page 623) stating KIA 18/10/1917.

5. George Owen, Sgt., Royal Fusiliers (Birmingham Roll of Honour Entry), Roll of Honour Of Birmingham Men & Women Who Fell In The Great War 1914-1918

6. Birmingham Mail 8th July 1918, (Sergeant G. Owen, Royal Fusiliers listed in column 5 of newspaper under heading “Casualties - Local Roll of Honour“).

7. Birmingham Daily Post 11th July 1918 (Sergeant G. Owen, Royal Fusiliers listed in column 3 of newspaper under heading “Casualties Among Midlands Men“).

8. 1891 England & Wales Census Entry (Census Entry for George Owen (aged 2), resident with Parents John & Mary (sic.) at 4 Back 16, St. Martins Street, Birmingham).

9. 1901 England & Wales Census Entry (Census Entry for George Owen (aged 11), resident with Mother Betsy Hayward and Stepfather Arthur Hayward at 7 House 2 Court, William Street, Birmingham).

10. 1911 England & Wales Census Entry (1) (Census Entry for George Owen (aged 21) resident with Grandmother Mary Ann Groves at 28 St. Martins Street, Birmingham).

11. 1911 England & Wales Census Entry (2) (Census Entry for Betsey Hayward resident with Arthur Hayward at Back of 53 Tennant Street, Birmingham. George Owen not resident).

12. Marriage Entry for Betsey Groves & John Owen (1877)

13. Marriage Entry for Betsey Owen (widow) & Arthur Hayward (1895)

14. 1920 Birmingham (Ladywood Ward) Electoral Roll Entry for Betsy Hayward, Address: 6 Darnley Terrace, Browning Street, Ladywood (confirmation of address in newspaper reports for Mrs. Owen).

Steve

[John_Hartley]

Steve

Thanks for that. I suspect just the weight of the overall evidence, rather than a specific item. I'm interested to see how the Effects information is impacting on decisions.

John

[ss002d6252]

Steve

Thanks for that. I suspect just the weight of the overall evidence, rather than a specific item. I'm interested to see how the Effects information is impacting on decisions.

John

The effects records should be a key proof in my opinion - the army didn't issue a penny without conclusive proof of the death - but have the CWGC/MOD ever issued a list of approved evidence ?

Craig

[John_Hartley]

Craig

No, there isn't a standard set of approved evidence (thank goodness) issued by the NAM. However, they won't accept a case simply on the basis of an appearance in the Effects Register, in the same way that they will no longer accept a case based solely on an overseas death certificate. Reason being neither have proved to be 100% reliable as confirmation that a man actually died. Thankfully, most of the IFCP submissions over recent years, of overseas deaths, were put forward and accepted under the previous MoD regime which generally accepted the death certificate as "gold standard".

It has become a more complex, but thorough, process. I'm aware that, on the fairly rare occasions that the NAM has not recommended acceptance, there has often been a several page report detailing their analysis and conclusions. I recall one that has left the door open if further evidence ever comes to light.

John

[ss002d6252]

Craig

No, there isn't a standard set of approved evidence (thank goodness) issued by the NAM. However, they won't accept a case simply on the basis of an appearance in the Effects Register, in the same way that they will no longer accept a case based solely on an overseas death certificate. Reason being neither have proved to be 100% reliable as confirmation that a man actually died. Thankfully, most of the IFCP submissions over recent years, of overseas deaths, were put forward and accepted under the previous MoD regime which generally accepted the death certificate as "gold standard".

It has become a more complex, but thorough, process. I'm aware that, on the fairly rare occasions that the NAM has not recommended acceptance, there has often been a several page report detailing their analysis and conclusions. I recall one that has left the door open if further evidence ever comes to light.

John

Thanks John - I can see their point of view on it (especially after other cases which shall not be named) but at least they're giving reasons for rejection.

Craig

[SteveE]

Thanks for that. I suspect just the weight of the overall evidence, rather than a specific item. I'm interested to see how the Effects information is impacting on decisions.

John

In George Owen's case I would presume that it was the Soldier's Effects entry that helped swayed the decision, it being the only 'official' evidence that the army had accepted his death, but not necessarily the sole reason for the acceptance. Without the entry I think I would have struggled as I don't believe that the rest of the evidence on its own was sufficiently conclusive for George to be accepted and nor do I believe that the Effects entry was sufficient on its own. Thankfully, with the assistance of a number of forum members, I was able to provide a weight of evidence to support the submission.

I do have another potential non-commemoration for whom I have similar records to George (Post#34 Items 1-4) but for whom I have no other supporting documentation to support a submission. Therefore, until I find further evidence in support, I will not submit it.

Steve

[ss002d6252]

John

In George Owen's case I would presume that it was the Soldier's Effects entry that helped swayed the decision, it being the only 'official' evidence that the army had accepted his death, but not necessarily the sole reason for the acceptance. Without the entry I think I would have struggled as I don't believe that the rest of the evidence on its own was sufficiently conclusive for George to be accepted and nor do I believe that the Effects entry was sufficient on its own. Thankfully, with the assistance of a number of forum members, I was able to provide a weight of evidence to support the submission.

I do have another potential non-commemoration for whom I have similar records to George (Post#34 Items 1-4) but for whom I have no other supporting documentation to support a submission. Therefore, until I find further evidence in support, I will not submit it.

Steve

If you have the effects records then there's no harm in giving it a try - if they say no then you at least know where you stand.

Craig