What Evidence of Death is required for a Possible Non-Commemoration

[SteveE]

The title says it all really, what evidence of death is required for the MOD to accept a soldier who is quite possibly not commemorated?

Full details are on this thread;

but in short I have a soldier, #13699 Sergeant George Owen of the 25th Royal Fusiliers, who is listed in the Medal Rolls and in the Soldiers Effects records as having been Killed in Action on 18/10/1917 in East Africa. My problem is that he doesn't appear to be recorded in CWGC, SDGW or in the GRO Soldiers Deaths Overseas records.

Would the contemporary records that are available be sufficient evidence to accept him or is that likely to be a non-starter?

Regards

Steve

[gem22]

Steve

I see no need to involve MOD. If you have a soldier who you believe should be commemorated by CWGC then get in touch with them. I had one and was able to convince them of the rightness of my case. I provided evidence of his death on a death certificate which gave cause of death. I was, in addition, able to produce some of his service record, and his POW record.

You may not have all the information I had but contact CWGC anyway as you may well have enough to go on. It will probably take time to get an answer but be patient; I gather that CWGC are dealing with many cases.

Garth

[johnboy]

From LLT

25th (Service) Battalion (Frontiersmen)
Formed in London on 12 February 1915 by the Legion of Frontiersmen.
10 April 195 : embarked at Plymouth for East Africa, arriving Mombasa 4 May 1915.
Left for England at end of May 1917. Disbanded at Putney on 29 June 1918.

Does the War Diary show where they were that day?

[ss002d6252]

Steve

I see no need to involve MOD. If you have a soldier who you believe should be commemorated by CWGC then get in touch with them. I had one and was able to convince them of the rightness of my case. I provided evidence of his death on a death certificate which gave cause of death. I was, in addition, able to produce some of his service record, and his POW record.

You may not have all the information I had but contact CWGC anyway as you may well have enough to go on. It will probably take time to get an answer but be patient; I gather that CWGC are dealing with many cases.

Garth

The CWGC will take the initial query but I believe that the actual decision is made by the MOD that the man is a war casualty and only then do the CWGC add the man to the database.

Craig

[SteveE]

Does the War Diary show where they were that day?

I'm afraid not, the war diary ends at the end of September 1917.

[SteveE]

Garth/Craig

Thanks for the thoughts, my take on it is the same as Craig's in that the MOD make the final decision but no idea what they'll accept as the necessary evidence.

Regards

Steve

[Bardess]

I believe the minimum documents required by NAM/CWGC are:

DC

Service/Pension records

SER entry

and grave location

[SteveE]

I believe the minimum documents required by NAM/CWGC are:

DC

Service/Pension records

SER entry

and grave location

Thanks Diane

There hangs my problem, none of that exists (or not that I've been able to find), all I have is the detail as shown in the link in my original post.

What makes it more 'frustrating' is that there is an "Unknown soldier (British)" buried in a collective grave with other 25thRF men who died on 18/10/1917 but CWGC have no other details.

Steve

[Bardess]

Oh dear, that makes it tough

EDIT: I would send Terry Denham an email including the above and ask his advice

[Retlaw]

I have had deaings with the C.W.G; re a Pal who was killed on July 1st 1916 who is not recorded, The C.W.G say they require a Death Cert, did a check on death certs at the local library, and a good 10% aren't recorded, they won't even accept the family's word.

I also have a mans service records, in which the mans father was told a death certificate would not be provided. So much for those ***** ***** at the C.W.G.

[chrisharley9]

Retlaw

If you get in touch with us at IFCP we can guide you through the process if you are prepared to share what evidence you have.

Chris

[SteveE]

Chris

In your experience, what chance do you think there is of George Owen being recognized based on the evidence available so far, bearing in mind that none of the 'standard' forms of evidence appear to exist?

Full details are on this thread

Regards

Steve

[chrisharley9]

Steve,

I do not wish to prejudge any case, but you have a fair chance based on what you have. If you would like IFCP to progress this for you please drop me a PM. You will remain the owner of the case whichever route you decide to go down.

Cheers

Chris

[SteveE]

Chris

I'd very much like IFCP to progress this on my behalf, I've dropped you a pm but I'm guessing your inbox is full as you're unable to receive new messages?

Regards

Steve

[stevem49]

I have had deaings with the C.W.G; re a Pal who was killed on July 1st 1916 who is not recorded, The C.W.G say they require a Death Cert, did a check on death certs at the local library, and a good 10% aren't recorded, they won't even accept the family's word.

I also have a mans service records, in which the mans father was told a death certificate would not be provided. So much for those ***** ***** at the C.W.G.

So you have checked the overseas GRO then? I think you will find they do not make the rules and have to 100% sure a man died in service or of a service related wound/injury/illness. Slagging the CWGC off does not help.

Maybe you could contact the IFCP for help. Perhaps if you give the forum his name etc, we may be able to help.

SM

[Sue Light]

Going back to the first thread ... I understand that if a name appears in 'Soldiers' Effects' and there is a note of a gratuity being issued, that alone is likely to be taken as sufficient for commemoration. This came up recently in connection with commemoration of a nurse, and the enquirer was told that if she was there, 'Yes' and if she wasn't 'No'. In her case it was a no, but it does seem it might be sufficient.

Sue

[SteveE]

Going back to the first thread ... I understand that if a name appears in 'Soldiers' Effects' and there is a note of a gratuity being issued, that alone is likely to be taken as sufficient for commemoration. This came up recently in connection with commemoration of a nurse, and the enquirer was told that if she was there, 'Yes' and if she wasn't 'No'. In her case it was a no, but it does seem it might be sufficient.

That is encouraging, based on that then hopefully I have enough evidence as the gratuity was paid. We'll see what develops.

Steve

[Loader]

I was told by CWGC back in the 80's that to get a man listed I had to provide a CURRENT letter from his Commanding Officer! This CO had been killed as well so that ended that attempt to get the man listed. Never heard that one before or since but given the passage of time that will be a real deal breaker for anyone trying to get recognition for a loss.

[stevem49]

35 years ago! The CWGC has changed somewhat since then.

As I said, if you give us his details we can check. Usually a death certificate is proof, so if we have his name we can check the overseas deaths.

Soldiers Effects are online and that should have info on his death (or not as men not killed are also on it)

As I say, without his info, we cannot help you.

SM

[johnboy]

Soldiers Effects are online and that should have info on his death (or not as men not killed are also on it)

Men that died are on the register. They did not have to have been killed or died during the war.

[ss002d6252]

Soldiers Effects are online and that should have info on his death (or not as men not killed are also on it)

Men that died are on the register. They did not have to have been killed or died during the war.

Men who did not die and are shown on the register (for ww1) should be those discharged insane or those who died after discharge but before they had received their war gratuity.

Craig

[stevem49]

I had two complete pages of 'men insane' recently and who did not die. Made me realise just how many must have suffered from mental issues after the war.

Steve

[johnboy]

The funny thing is, some of the insane were given the money. Maybe they had no relatives?

[ss002d6252]

The funny thing is, some of the insane were given the money. Maybe they had no relatives?

I'm not sure of the legal process of when they were declared insane but AO 17 of 1919 is relatively committal on who the monies would be paid to. I presume if they didn't have a legal appointee the money had to be sent directly to them.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

I had two complete pages of 'men insane' recently and who did not die. Made me realise just how many must have suffered from mental issues after the war.

Steve

I always wonder how many men had existing problems which only came to light (medically) due to their service. The massive expansion of the army undoubtedly led to men who had mental problems being enlisted.

Craig