What was the star awarded for?

[ss002d6252]

The silver star looks similar to an American silver citation star but I can't see why that would be on his ribbon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Citation_Star

Craig

[NigelS]

Interesting thread, and well beyond my knowledge on medals, but couldn't help noticing the similarity between the star on the riband in question and the American silver 'citation star' Click Does seem rather unlikely that a British Soldier would have received such an award though, but who am I to say?

NigelS

Edit: Sorry ss002d6252, hadn't seen your post - obviously thinking along the same lines...

Nigel

Edited 2 October , 2015 by NigelS

[MBrockway]

I've taken the liberty of posting the photo on the British Medal Forum here (you may need to register)

The specialists there should be able to help us.

Luzzu - I hope you don't mind.

[royalredcross]

Whatever it is, either French or USA, it shouldn't be there.

NGG

[MBrockway]

A plausible lead has emerged from the British Medal Forum.

The star is very similar to the silver star adornment device used by the French Government to signify a citation at Divisional or Corps level on a Croix de Guerre.

Between 1918 and July 1920, the former Ottoman Levantine provinces and the eastern parts of the former Ottoman Mesopotamian provinces were administered jointly by the British and French under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).

If Capt Spiller was mentioned in despatches for his Supply & Transport responsibilities in South Kurdistan in Feb 1920, these same activities are likely to have also benefited the French administration and lead to a French citation. Alternatively, as it was a joint Anglo-French administration, Spiller may have automatically received both a British MiD and a French 'Mention without cross'.

Since he had a French citation, but no French medal on which to wear it, perhaps Spiller felt it was acceptable to adorn his GSM, awarded for his services in this theatre, with the French device?

Perhaps medal protocol might even regard the GSM as awarded via the joint Anglo-French OETA and therefore the French star was acceptable?

Does anyone know how to research a French 'Mention without Cross' to a foreign national?

[Uncle George]

Taprell Dorling (op cit):

"CROIX DE GUERRE: This decoration was established on 8 April 1915 to commemorate individual mentions in despatches. The cross is awarded to soldiers or sailors of all ranks, officers included, and also to officers and men of Allied forces, mentioned in French despatches ...

"The different classes of despatches for which a recipient was awarded the cross may be recognised by the following emblem on the ribbon: ... Army Corps Despatch - silver gilt star; Divisional Despatch - silver star ..."

So, the star emblem was to be worn on the ribbon of the Croix, which was awarded to Allied forces. Perhaps Captain Spiller lost his Croix de Guerre ...

[Uncle George]

Croix de Guerre with emblem (the laurel branch represents an Army Despatch):

[MBrockway]

Since Spiller was in the Indian Army Supply & Transport Corps, I suspect his citation did not involve actual combat with the enemy, in this case insurgents in rebellion..

His British MiD comes under the heading of "The names of the undermentioned have been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War for valuable services rendered during the military operations in Southern Kurdistan."

If indeed Spiller does have a matching French citation, then French practice where there was no combat contact was to award a 'Mention without Cross' which was recorded in the man's service record but not recognised with an actual medal. If the recipient already had a Croix de Guerre, the additional star would be added to the ribbon.

Perhaps Spiller decided it was acceptable protocol to add the French star to his GSM? Permission to use the oak leaf for the British MiD oak leaf spray on the GSM was only granted after 1947, so he would have had no option to adorn the GSM that way in the inter-war period.

Do any of the Pals know methods of researching French citations to foreign nationals?

[Luzzu]

Thank you so much for all your help with my query. I had no idea it would be this complicated. In addition, when I first posted I understood that he was mentioned in despatches once (15th Apr 1918) but it appears there was a second MiD.

Luzzu

[Muerrisch]

Brilliant thread ......... Forum at its best.

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Luzzu,

Try posting this on the British Medal Forum or I can do it for you ? http://www.britishmedalforum.com/index.php

Kind regards

Hiram

Oops had not seen the threads after your post of the photograph, I would agree with the current thought that it is in loose terms a French MID.

[ghchurcher]

I've been scratching about too.

I found this over on the British Medal Forum ...

and ...

[source: British Medal Forum topic (BMF account needed)]

¹in "Mentioned in Dispatches : The Evolution of Certificates and Emblems for British Mentions in Despatches " by Jim Condon published by OMRS in 2007)

Since Spiller was eligible for the VM, this seems to imply he would NOT wear the oak leaf on the GSM for his Kurdistan MiD.

That said, the same BMF topic contains a photo of the DSO medal group of Lt.-Col. WA Moore, RGA, containing a VM with oak leaf AND an IGSM also with oak leaf. Both oak leaves are contemporary to the medals and are of the spray type rather than the single leaf. Edit: on looking more carefully at the photo, the VM oak leaf is of the spray type, while the IGSM is the single leaf and represents an MiD, which the BMF poster says relates to the IGSM's Waziristan 1921-1924 clasp. The BMF poster acknowledges that the IGSM was separate from the other mounted medals and it is possible the single oak leaf was applied retrospectively after the 1947 guideline was released.

There is another photo of the MM MSM medal group of RHA Spooner, KLR, later Royal Tank Corps, which has an oak leaf on his IGSM even though he also has the VM. Spooner's MiD was post war and related to his service reflected by the Afghanistan NWF 1919 clasp to his IGSM. He did not get a Great War MiD.

It seems there was a certain amount of 'interpretation' of the guidelines.

Interestingly when the Spooner group came from the family it came in two stages, firstly the MM, IGS, DD, MSM & LSGC, and there was the WW1 type MID pinned to the MM, not the IGS. Later the trio arrived apparently to a relative as the trio had different unit and service numbers to the rest. Eventually two MICs were found (one with the trio and one with the IGS) which indicated an overlap of service numbers across both MICs so confirming both sets belonged to the same man. He was not MID for WW1. His Afghan MID was dated 03/08/20 so as pre11/08/20 qualified for the WW1 type MID emblem. It was recently discovered he was also MID for Waziristan 10/06/21 so under 1947 rules he also qualifies retrospectively for the WW2 type MID for his IGS ! Quite neat to see two different MID emblems on one medal, though it should probably have the WW1 one on the Victory and WW2 on the IGS under the rules though I would prefer to see the pair on the IGS. Interestingly I have also now discovered he re-enlisted for WW2 and further medal entitlement !!

By contrast Moore was MID for WW1 and in 1924 for Waziristan so the WW2 type MID as a retro fit is correct.

I have another group, an IDSM & IGS Afghan/Mashud/Waziristan who was Afghan MID 18/05/20 so got a WW1 MID to wear on his IGS and a further MID 10/06/21 for Waz and got a WW2 MID also for his IGS.

[ghchurcher]

Back to Spiller, he was MID in 1919 for Southern Kurdistan (and 1920 from above for Iraq?) which under the rules at the time meant he could wear a WW1 MID on his Victory for his GSM (which genius thought up that half baked rule). Feeling miffed as he already had an MID on his Victory for WW1 service, and knowing about the FCdG system, he unofficially elected to wear a French "MID star" on his GSM to represent his MID. After the 1947 rule he could have added a WW2 type MID to his GSM on the basis of his 1920 MID (if MID post 11/08/20).

[MBrockway]

Geoffrey - very useful additional evidence illustrating some of the variations in the way these MiD emblems were actually worn and a good caveat that emblems may well get moved between medals later. Certainly the 'rule' from the War Office letter of Sep 1920 seems to suggest the emblem should be worn on any VM regardless of whether the mention actually related to a Great War action. This does seem illogical!

Also I am unclear whether it was permissible to wear additional MiD emblems when mentions were in different conflicts. Certainly multiple mentions within the Great War were represented by only one emblem, though a certificate was issued each time. This was in contrast to the French Croix de Guerre where the emblems could be accumulated.

It must be a British thing - understatement. Personally I prefer to see a small meaningful row of medals than the enormous North Korean style racks you seem to see on the chests of US service personnel.

I see you are 'Hardinge' on the British Medal Forum and therefore the original author of the Moore/Spooner post I quote above. I hope you don't mind me using your photos here.

The additional information would be very useful included in the original MiD topic over on the BMF. Would you consider posting it there too?

Cheers,

Mark