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Remembered Today:

What was the star awarded for?


Luzzu

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Hi,

I have a set of medals which were awarded to Captain Thomas Reuben Spiller (1889-1965). I have identified the medals as:-

British War Medal;

Victory Medal with an Oak Leaf Emblem signifying he was mentioned in despatches;

General Service Medal 1918 with Iraq and Kurdistan clasps;

George VI Coronation Medal

On the ribbon of the General Service Medal there is a star. My query is what is the significance of the star? I also have the "mess dress" miniature medals and the star also appears. I am struggling to find any reference to stars being awarded on British Army medals. He only served with the British Army in India and the Middle East.

Captain Spiller was part of the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force and was mentioned in despatches by Lieutenant- General W R Marshall, Commanding-in-Chief in his Despatch dated 15th April 1918. He was an Acting Captain at that time. He was demobilized in India in 1920.

Thank you.

Luzzu

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Hi Luzzu.

I believe that the star / rosette emblem was meant to be used when

the recipient was wearing a ribbon only and not the medal itself.

It indicates that the actual medal includes a clasp.

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Hi Luzzu.

I believe that the star / rosette emblem was meant to be used when

the recipient was wearing a ribbon only and not the medal itself.

It indicates that the actual medal includes a clasp.

Not on a GSM. They all had at least one clasp.

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Stoppage Drill wrote, "Not on a GSM. They all had at least one clasp."

Thanks for that S D. I did a search about the GSM and see what you mean regarding its clasps.

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Upload a photo of the medal showing the star please

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Is it a star or a rosette? Does it look like a stylised rose?

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did the GSM have the facility for an MiD oakleaf to be added, and, if so, perhaps the rosette was in error for the leaf?

Yes.

Stoppage Drill,

That is incorrect.

The Mentioned in Despatches oakleaf emblem was issued to those mentioned in despatches between 4th August, 1914 and 19th August, 1920, and was to be worn on the ribbon of the Victory Medal.

Should the MID oakleaf emblem recipient not be entitled to the Victory Medal, then the MID oakleaf emblem was to be worn on the ribbon of the British War Medal.

In the event that the recipient of the MID oakleaf emblem had neither the Victory Medal or the British War Medal, then the MID oakleaf emblem was worn on the jacket.

Regards,

LF

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On the ribbon of the General Service Medal there is a star. My query is what is the significance of the star?

Luzzu

Luzzu,

The ' Star ' you are referring to may in fact be a small rose emblem ( rosette ) which was worn in the centre of the ribbon on a ribbon bar to denote that the wearer of the ' rosette ' had been awarded a Clasp or Bar to that particular medal.

It was not worn on the actual medal ribbon, the appropriate Clasp or Bar would have been worn on the medal's ribbon.

In the attached example, the ribbon bar shows the recipient had a Bar to the Military Medal, and a Clasp to the 1914 Star, both denoted by the small ' rosette ' attached to the centre of the ribbon on the ribbon bar.

Regards,

LF

post-63666-0-42251500-1443784580_thumb.j

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Stoppage Drill,

That is incorrect.

The Mentioned in Despatches oakleaf emblem was issued to those mentioned in despatches between 4th August, 1914 and 19th August, 1920, and was to be worn on the ribbon of the Victory Medal.

Should the MID oakleaf emblem recipient not be entitled to the Victory Medal, then the MID oakleaf emblem was to be worn on the ribbon of the British War Medal.

In the event that the recipient of the MID oakleaf emblem had neither the Victory Medal or the British War Medal, then the MID oakleaf emblem was worn on the jacket.

Regards,

LF

There is facility on a GSM ribbon for an oakleaf. That was the question, and in the context of an Iraq/Kurdistan clasped medal.

post-86463-0-83323200-1443784933.png

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Surely if the MiD was in relation to the post-War campaigns the oak leaf would not be on either of the Great War campaign medals?

I think SD is quite correct.

  • Kurdistan

This clasp was awarded for the following:

  • At Kirburk or north of a line east and west through Kirburk between 23 May and 31 July 1919.
  • At Dohok or north of a line east and west through Dohok between 14 July and 7 October 1919.
  • North of the advanced bases near Akra and Amadia between 7 November and 6 December 1919.
  • Iraq

This clasp was presented to those who satisfied one of the following conditions:

  • Served at Ramadi or north of a line east and west through Ramadi between 10 December 1919 and 13 June 1920.
  • Part of an establishment within Iraq between 1 July and 17 November 1920.

[source: Wikipedia ...with usual caveats :thumbsup: ]

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And indeed ...

London Gazette - Issue Number 31777 Fourth Supplement to the LG of 10 Feb 1920 31777, Published 10 Feb 1920
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31777/supplement/1805

[Page 1804]
SOUTHERN KURDISTAN
The names of the undermentioned have been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War for valuable services rendered during the military operations in Southern Kurdistan. Dated 15th November, 1919 :-
<snip>

INDIAN ARMY

<snip>

[Page 1805]
SUPPLY AND TRANSPORT CORPS
Spiller, Capt. T.R., I.A.R.O., attd. S. and T. Corps

(= Indian Army Reserve of Officers, attached Indian Army Supply and Transport Corps)

Edited by MBrockway
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I am not saying Spiller did not also get a Mention in Despatches for activities in the Great War, so the oak leaf on the Victory Medal may be perfectly correct.

I'll leave it to another Pal to hunt the LG for a MiD 1916 (no 1914-15 Star) through to 1918 :hypocrite:

Edit: Luzzu already gives the date of the earlier MiD ...

Captain Spiller was part of the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force and was mentioned in despatches by Lieutenant- General W R Marshall, Commanding-in-Chief in his Despatch dated 15th April 1918. He was an Acting Captain at that time. He was demobilized in India in 1920.

Looks like he stopped his LG trawl too early if he missed the subsequent 1920 GSM MiD :thumbsup:

We're still no further forward on the 'star'/rosette on the GSM though - it should have an oak leaf.

Edited by MBrockway
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I am not saying Spiller did not also get a Mention in Despatches for activities in the Great War, so the oak leaf on the Victory Medal may be perfectly correct.

Luzzu specifically mentions Captain Spiller's WW1 awards and MID, in which case his MID emblem is correctly on his Victory Medal ribbon not on his GSM ribbon.

Regards,

LF

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There is facility on a GSM ribbon for an oakleaf. That was the question, and in the context of an Iraq/Kurdistan clasped medal.

SD,

I am sure Grumpy's question related to this particular Thread and WW1 awards and MID mentioned in post # 1, in which case, the MID oakleaf emblem would not have been attached to the GSM ribbon, there needed to be no ambiguity in relation to the WW1 MID oakleaf emblem and those mentioned in despatches between 4th August, 1914 and 19th August, 1920.

Regards,

LF

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Thank you. I obviously completely misunderstood what "did the GSM have the facility for an MiD oakleaf to be added" really meant.

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Luzzu specifically mentions Captain Spiller's WW1 awards and MID, in which case his MID emblem is correctly on his Victory Medal ribbon not on his GSM ribbon.

Regards,

LF

As I made crystal clear in my supplementary edit timestamped 13:53hrs some 20 mins before you made this post!

However Spiller has at least two MiD's - at least one during the War and reflected in the oak leaf on the VM, plus at least one after the War, which relates to Spiller's Kurdistan GSM clasp and should be reflected by an oak leaf on the GSM, but which is not.

Instead we have a 'star' (possibly actually a rosette) on the GSM.

I'm with SD on this one - David was asking a general question about oak leaves on the GSM for wider interest than this specific officer. Why would David ask specifically about the GSM if he were only interested in WW1 awards which would exclude the GSM?

SD's answer coupled with my LG reference to the later MiD make it clear that Spiller should have two oak leaves - one on the VM and one on the GSM.

Or are you saying that the post War 1920 MiD should only be reflected on the VM?

I suggest we cannot advance further on this until the OP posts the photo of the mysterious 'star' I asked for in my first post :unsure:

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I know a soldier in the Great War only wore a single oak leaf regardless of how many times he was Mentioned in Despatches during the Great War.

I guess the crux of this is whether a soldier with multiple MiDs, some of which relate to the Great War and some of which relate to post-War campaigns, would only have a single oak leaf on the VM, or would be entitled to another oak leaf on a later campaign medal for the MiDs relating to those later MiDs.

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For the avoidance of doubt, my query about MiD awarded during currency of a GSM was indeed meant to refer very specifically after the Great War.

I have since scratched around [medals not my scene] but am not at all sure if multiple MiDs spread over multiple wars/ campaigns can be signified by multiple oakleaves on the relevant ribbon. Logic says "yes" but whenever did logic apply?

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I guess the crux of this is whether a soldier with multiple MiDs, some of which relate to the Great War and some of which relate to post-War campaigns, would only have a single oak leaf on the VM, or would be entitled to another oak leaf on a later campaign medal for the MiDs relating to those later MiDs.

Let us look at the wording in Taprell Dorling's 'Ribbons and Medals':

"MENTION IN DESPATCHES, 1914-19 - ... The award of this Emblem ceased as from 10 August 1920.

"MENTION IN DESPATCHES, 1920-39 - The single bronze oak leaf Emblem, if granted for service between the two World Wars, is worn on the ribbon of the appropriate General Service Medal ... "

This suggests to me that the award of a second Emblem would depend on the date of the second MiD (that is to say, if it were before or after 10 August 1920).

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I've been scratching about too.

I found this over on the British Medal Forum ...

The new single leaf emblem was introduced in 1944. AMO A.1193/1944 states, inter alia, "...and an emblem of the approved pattern may be worn as provided ... to denote that the wearer has been mentioned in despatches or has received a commendation for services during the present war". It then goes on to say that "The wearing of either of these emblems (ie that for WW1 and the new design) to denote mentions in despatches for services before 4 August 1914 or between 21 August 1921 and 3 September 1939 is forbidden"..

This later ruling was obviously reviewed and the 1947 instructions gave authority for the wearing of the single leaf emblems for awards between the wars.

I have never seen a photograph of an oakleaf being worn on inter-war medals with the exception of a few for Afghanistan, Somaliland, etc.


and ...

In his excellent book, mentioned above, Lt-Col Jim Condon MBE states, that although the final qualification date for the first MID emblem was set as 10 August 1920, a War Office letter dated 21 September 1920 made clear that the MID emblem could only be awarded to a person in possession of the Victory Medal, and was to be worn on that ribbon. No Victory Medal, no MID emblem although certificates were still awarded for mentions in post-war campaigns.

Condon1 states that the question of inter-war MIDs was resolved in Command Paper 7035 of February 1947, promulgated in AO 109 of 9 September. Condon1, pp32-33:
"Belatedly, all those who were MID after 11 August 1920 would be authorised to wear the emblem designed initially for service only during the Second World War. This Command Paper also gave authority for the first type emblem, for the First World War, to be worn on two campaign medals, for those ineligible for the Victory Medal. The eligible medals and clasps were: the India GSM, 1908-1935, for operations earning the clasps 'AFGHANISTAN NWF 1919', 'WAZIRISTAN 1919-21', and/or 'MAHSUD 1919-20' and the GSM (Army & RAF), 1918, for operations earning the clasps 'S.PERSIA', 'KURDISTAN' and/or 'IRAQ'. There appears to be no authority for wearing this emblem on the Africa GSM, 1902."

[source: British Medal Forum topic (BMF account needed)]

1in "Mentioned in Dispatches : The Evolution of Certificates and Emblems for British Mentions in Despatches " by Jim Condon published by OMRS in 2007)


Since Spiller was eligible for the VM, this seems to imply he would NOT wear the oak leaf on the GSM for his Kurdistan MiD.

That said, the same BMF topic contains a photo of the DSO medal group of Lt.-Col. WA Moore, RGA, containing a VM with oak leaf AND an IGSM also with oak leaf. Both oak leaves are contemporary to the medals and are of the spray type rather than the single leaf. Edit: on looking more carefully at the photo, the VM oak leaf is of the spray type, while the IGSM is the single leaf and represents an MiD, which the BMF poster says relates to the IGSM's Waziristan 1921-1924 clasp. The BMF poster acknowledges that the IGSM was separate from the other mounted medals and it is possible the single oak leaf was applied retrospectively after the 1947 guideline was released.

There is another photo of the MM MSM medal group of RHA Spooner, KLR, later Royal Tank Corps, which has an oak leaf on his IGSM even though he also has the VM. Spooner's MiD was post war and related to his service reflected by the Afghanistan NWF 1919 clasp to his IGSM. He did not get a Great War MiD.

It seems there was a certain amount of 'interpretation' of the guidelines.

Edited by MBrockway
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Thanks for all your replies.

I am sorry I thought I had added a photograph to my original post. I obviously didn't do it correctly.

I will try and add a photograph now.

Luzzu

post-50493-0-28888100-1443822063_thumb.j

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Well, the photo clearly shows a star and not an Oak leaf of any form, let the speculation continue. BTW even the MOD website makes no mention of a star.

Sam

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Not a rosette either! I'm certainly stumped!

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