CWGC confirms that John Kipling is buried in the correct grave

[Muerrisch]

On 28/01/2016 at 16:10, SteveE said:

If I understand the posted list (post #176) correctly then 2nd Lt. Kipling was originally posted as 'Missing'? When was his death finally accepted because if it's after the date of the Gazette then his Lieutenancy would have been confirmed (backdated to 7th June) and he would be officially listed as a Lieutenant?

Steve

Yes I believe so, which makes his father's text even more telling.

[Guest]

On 28/01/2016 at 16:10, SteveE said:

If I understand Guest's posted list (post #176) correctly then 2nd Lt. Kipling was originally posted as 'Missing'? When was his death finally accepted because if it's after the date of the Gazette then his Lieutenancy would have been confirmed (backdated to 7th June) and he would be officially listed as a Lieutenant?

Steve

The History was of course written after the war so the Roll of Honour mentioning Kipling as a Lieutenant simply reflects the highest rank he was promoted to (albeit after his death). the important point is that Rudyard describes him as a 2nd Lt in the narrative describing the battle. Kipling is listed as Officers Missing (Killed in Action) in Appendix A. Page 229 Vol II MG

[SteveE]

The History was of course written after the war so the Roll of Honour mentioning Kipling as a Lieutenant simply reflects the highest rank he was promoted to (albeit after his death). the important point is that Rudyard describes him as a 2nd Lt in the narrative describing the battle. Kipling is listed as Officers Missing (Killed in Action) in Appendix A. Page 229 Vol II MG

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, perhaps not too succinctly. Everything found so far suggests that Kipling was a Second Lieutenant, even the Times Casualty list published on October 19th 1915 shows him as Missing as a Second Lieutenant. The only mentions in any documentation of him as a Lieutenant are after the London Gazette issue of November 1915 and not before so his father's writing is correct, Second Lieutenant during the battle and later as a Lieutenant in the Roll of Honour.

Steve

[Guest]

The Irish Guards: Subaltern Promotions to Lt - 1915. There are 35 Irish Guards subalterns whose promotions to Lieutenant are Gazetted in 1915 and early 1916. I have trawled the Battalion war diaries, Brigade war diaries and Guards Div war diary for any mention of these subalterns between July-Dec 1915. Of these, 6 are not mentioned at all and the other 29 are mentioned on various dates including nominal rolls and casualty rolls. There are 66 mentions in total. Only three four are recorded in any rank other than 2nd Lt prior to their London Gazette confirmation. [edited with correct numbers]

1. Temp Lt Hon H B O'Brien. Battalion diary records promotion to "Temp Lt" on 31st August. Gazetted Lt 9th Nov with 14 others (including Kipling). His promotion backdated to 15 Jul 1915

2. Lt W B Stevens - Acting Adjutant.

3. Lt C D Wynter. Note he was a Lt with the 4th Bn OBLI prior to transferring. Notably he was anacting as a Company Commander an appointment which demanded a higher rank. .Easily explained.

4. Lt D J B Fitzgerald – cannot find any relevant LG entry for Temp Captaincy for ‘Fitzgerald’ mentioned in diary. Possibly this is a different Fitzgerald (five served). Edit. Confirmed reference is not D J B Fitzgerald

4. Lt R E Sassoon - mentioned as a Lieut in the diary on 3 Sep 1915 (Edit additional find). Bombing Officer. Note in the two Div casualty records and the Battalion nominal roll he is clearly referred to as 2 Lt. Perhaps more importantly the same battalion diary (and the same handwriting) shows him as 2 Lieut on the casualty report dated 30 Sep 1914. Four entries as 2 Lt and one as Lt might suggest the latter is a mistake by a tired diarist.

Note There are a number of other Lts however they were all promoted in June 1915. The only other examples of promotions I can find are not subalterns;

"Captain L R Hargreaves who was on 13th [september 1915] permitted to wear the badge of Captain pending his temporary promotion to that rank being announced in the London Gazette and the CO Major G H C Madden was on the 6th September [1915] gazetted a temporary Lieutenant-Colonel. These were the first grants of temporary rank in the Battalion. [irish Guards in the Great War Vol I page 109]

Note the last comment refers to the Temporary rank being Gazetted. Hargreaves was acting as a Company Commander and was one of the few Officers who had fought through 1914. The LG shows him a substantive Captain on 3rd Feb 1916. I can not find any LG for the Temp Capt.

To my mind this shows that the Irish Guards were not inclined to allow platoon commanders to put up rank prior to the London Gazette date. All the examples above can be explained. There is no evidence that any Subaltern platoon commander did so. Fitzgerald warrants further research - there are five Fitzgeralds who served as Officers so the chances of confusion are reasonably high. Incidentally the average time lag between effective data and announcement date was 119 days. Data below. Any mistakes are mine. MG

edited and re-posted.

Table: Irish Guards: Subalterns promoted to Lieutenant in 1915 showing mentions of rank in various primary material

[charlesmessenger]

Martin

Once again your exhaustive research has, to my mind, confirmed that Kipling was wearing just one pip when he was killed. There always has to be an anomaly and O'Brien is clearly this. I suspect that his promotion to 'T/Lt' was actually unofficial and authorised merely by the CO. I think that he was not being paid as a full Lt and that his rank was actually Local, rather an Temporary. However, if the war diary noted his 'local' promotion it would have surely done the same for Kipling if he was promoted in the days before his death.

Two Ess Gee

Thank you for adding weight to my suppostion of what Kipling was wearing at the time of his death.

Charles M

[johnboy]

Forgive me if I am not up to speed [there's a lot to take in]. and if this has been mentioned/asked before.

It seems the body was found and reburied in 1919 as an unknown. 2 yrs later it has been identified. Was the body exhumed and examined or were effects or uniform or other items used for a positive ID?

[Guest]

Martin

Once again your exhaustive research has, to my mind, confirmed that Kipling was wearing just one pip when he was killed. There always has to be an anomaly and O'Brien is clearly this. I suspect that his promotion to 'T/Lt' was actually unofficial and authorised merely by the CO. I think that he was not being paid as a full Lt and that his rank was actually Local, rather an Temporary. However, if the war diary noted his 'local' promotion it would have surely done the same for Kipling if he was promoted in the days before his death.

Charles M

Charles... I am wading through the data for the rest of the Guards Division battalions.... and the story is the exactly the same ... to my mind the evidence is overwhelmingly against the idea that any Guards battalion put two stars up before the Gazette date. Not that anyone would really be surprised. MG

Edit. 2 Lt H E Gordon was also raised to a 'Temp Lt' on the same day, however I have failed to find any paper trail in the London Gazette.

[Guest]

Grumpy is correct that Kipling's history of the Irish Guards has him as 2/Lt in the text. Text version, Vol II archive.org Click

Not mentioned in Vol I (I think) both volumes here Click

Mike

[hazelclark]

This is a fascinating discussion to which I certainly can't add much. However, my grandfather was a Lance Sergeant, never to my knowledge, a full sergeant. Nevertheless, in the war Diary of the 8th Seaforth, even in the "Daily Orders" in July 1917 when he was given notice of his award of the M.M, he is referred to as "sergeant". Therefore, as someone said earlier, the error of title was fairly common.

Hazel C.

[HarryBrook]

Regarding post #220, the LG notification for the appointment of Lt. L. R. Hargreaves to the temporary rank of Capt., dated 10.9.1915, was:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29310/page/9553

He relinquished the temporary rank of Capt. on 9.11.1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29404/supplement/12547

The wording of the notification, "Second Lieutenant L. R. Hargreaves (now Lieutenant)", seems strange since he was promoted Lieutenant on the same date that he was confirmed in the rank of 2nd. Lt., 23.12.1914.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29015/page/10926

[HarryBrook]

Again regarding post #220, I believe the Lt. FitzGerald appointed temporary Captain in 1915 was John Sidney North Fitzgerald, appointed temporary Captain on 18.6.1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29293/supplement/9071

Appointed Adjutant (as Lieutenant) 27.9.1915

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29391/supplement/12159

and promoted substantive Captain 2.3.1916

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29580/supplement/4820

He was mentioned in despatches 31.12.1915 as temporary Captain

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29422/supplement/31

[Guest]

Harry

Thanks... It seems fairly clear that 'Fitzgerald' in the diary is J S N FitzGerald and not D J B Fitzgerald...which solves one loose end.. The key document I cannot locate is J S N FitzGerald's promotion from 2 Lt to Lt. Either way it is fairly clear that his progress is documented thereafter and explains the diary entries. The May 1915 Army list has him as a Lt dated 2nd May 1914. It is also worth noting.

Lord D FitzGerald was at the same time Capt and Adjutant of the 1st Bn (Source: Army List)

Lt A H B Fitzgerald was in the Regiment and was ex 2 Lt Life Guards. No battalion assigned (Source: Army List) Shown on the 1914 Star medal roll (disembarkation date of 27th Aug 1914). He arrives with 1st Bn with a draft.

2 Lt D J B FitzGerald was with the 2/1st East Riding Yeomanry in May 1915 (Source: Army List) Shown on the 1914-15 Star medal roll with the Irish Guards (disembarkation date of 21st Aug 1915). Shown in a nominal roll at the end of Dec 1915 as Lt D J B FitzGerald in No.1 Coy 1st Bn.

On core topic: this eliminates one out-lier in the data leaving us with Hargreaves' promotion from 2 Lt to Lt. He was a Company Commander in Dec 1914. By mid 1915 It would be very surprising if he wasn't already a Lt.

One other loose end is the promotion trail of A F L Gordon who is recorded as a 'Temp Lt' in Aug 1915

MG

[Guest]

One other loose end is the promotion trail of A F L Gordon who is recorded as a 'Temp Lt' in Aug 1915

MG

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29404/supplement/12547/data.pdf

Mike

[Muerrisch]

If AF Gordon has an asterisk [Army List] with his name BEFORE being made Temp Lt, it means beyond doubt that his was a Temporary [war] commission.

[Ken Lees]

This is all very interesting, but is it relevant to the question - "Is the body found that of John Kipling?"

What I mean by that is, were any Lieutenants of the Irish Guards killed in the same area and not found/identified?

If not, I think we are back to, "which of the 2nd Lieutenants of the Irish Guards killed and missing that day is it?"

This, of course, assumes that the unit identification was correct.

[Guest]

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29404/supplement/12547/data.pdf

Mike

Thanks. The 1st Bn nominal Roll of May 1915 shows him as 2 Lt and at the end of 1915 he is shown in the nominal roll as a Captain.

[laughton]

I can answer that in part from what we submitted on October 28,2015:

We now know, without any doubt, that the Irish Guard Lieutenant was killed in the vicinity of the Chalk Pit Woods on September 27, 1915, exactly where his remains were uncovered in September 1919. There were three (3) possible candidates for this Irish Guard Lieutenant, as they were the only 3 Irish Guard 2nd Lieutenants killed in action at that time and place: (assuming they took 2nd Lieutenant the same as a Lieutenant, as no 1st Lieutenants were killed)

• 2nd Lieutenant Clifford
• 2nd Lieutenant Law
• 2nd Lieutenant Kipling

We would agree that you can dismiss Lieutenant Clifford, as he was taken by the Germans (alive, wounded or dead is unknown) and buried some distance away in St. Auguste, France, well behind the enemy lines. His extraction and burial by the Germans is well supported in the documents from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Geneva, Switzerland. As for Lieutenant Law, the story is that he was shot in the head and taken off the battlefield to a hospital (perhaps a “Field Ambulance” or “Casualty Clearing Station”) where he later died. It is reported that he was buried in a grave south of Chalk Pit Woods and north of Loos, but unfortunately we have not seen the primary reference to this claim. If the statements for Clifford and Law are correct, then that is the proof that the remains are those of Lieutenant Kipling.

It is important to note that I was not saying that the remains are Kipling's, only that if the statements were true then it would be Kipling. To date I have not seen that proof for Law therefore I could not say that the remains are those of Kipling, nor do I believe can anyone make that claim.

As for Lieutenant Clifford, I presented this information in October 28, 2015:

We can exclude Lieutenant Clifford as the records clearly show that he was in the hands of the Germans and when he died he was buried some distance away in St. Auguste, France. These records are provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) for Prisoners of War (POWs).

For which I included the documents: (I have the full set if anyone wants to see them)

Better yet, I can give you the links so you can see the full scale documents here: (these are all from the ICRC and relate to Clifford)

• https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9d49/1rca7vvsytftrur6g.jpg
• https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0341/23xyd4p96iq2h8j6g.jpg
• https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/73bb/7ba8b11dlxljyg16g.jpg
• https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7c96/t5m9dpim5e2mloi6g.jpg
• https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cc54/e54c4uae3f5x6v86g.jpg

As for 2nd Lt. Law, there is no confirmed burial location but we did post back on December 8th that we had a possible location for his remains at 44A.H25.c.5.4. We posted the links to the GRRF and the COG-BR for the Loos British Cemetery. Once again, we were not looking for 2nd Lt. Law but our Canadian Lt. Wylie, who we also believe we found a 44A.H.26.c.10.9. I mention the Canadian as we have direct knowledge that there are not other Canadian Officers missing at that location but we do not have the same information for the British Officers. Perhaps someone on your side of the pond might know? What we can say is that if the descriptions of where 2nd Lt. Law went missing are correct then those are quite "possibly" his remains. No "smoking gun".

These are the links for the possible Law documents:

GRRF

COG-BR

[charlie2]

The ICRC documents only state that Lt Clifford had been killed, there is no suggestion that he died in German hands. There is also no information as to where they found his body only that he was buried by them near St August.

Charlie

Edit forgot his name

[Guest]

This is all very interesting, but is it relevant to the question - "Is the body found that of John Kipling?"

What I mean by that is, were any Lieutenants of the Irish Guards killed in the same area and not found/identified?

If not, I think we are back to, "which of the 2nd Lieutenants of the Irish Guards killed and missing that day is it?"

This, of course, assumes that the unit identification was correct.

Ken - If one agrees that it is an Irish Guards Officer, it can only be Law or Kipling. The discussion about rank becomes irrelevant as both were 2 Lts. Either they had put up rank or they didn't and GRU made another error.

For the body to be positively identified as Kipling's we need to know where Law's body is. We don't. Wherever he was buried (the records suggest somewhere close to the Chalk Pits) the grave has been lost. In the subsequent years after his death his body could have been moved. We simply don't know. The rest is simply conjecture.

The Parker/Legg theory about rank is really anchored in the fact that the MOD/CWGC seems adamant that the GRU could not make a mistake on uniform or rank identification. For the Parker/Legg theory to have MOD/CWGC agreement/approval they have to argue he put up rank. Working backwards, if one can clearly show rank was not put up, then the MOD/CWGC stance becomes untenable.i.e GRU made another mistake....and by extension for the body to be Kipling they would have to accept that the GRU made two mistakes.

If they do acknowledge this, it potentially opens up a whole can of worms on other positive 'identifications'.... which is why (I think) establishing the common practice on putting up rank (or not putting up rank) is quite important.

For the record I think it is probably Kipling, simply because the GRU made mistakes. Equally I don't think there is sufficient proof to be certain, and the arguments on putting up rank and the pay calculations are fallacious. The subalterns in Kipling's cohort are described as 2 Lts on over 50 occasions in the diaries. Preliminary research would indicate that it was the same for the other 11 Foot Guards battalions, meaning there will be around 500 examples within the Division. How is that explained by the MOD/CWGC/Parker/Legg school of thought.

To my mind this whole story is about standards of proof and really has little to do with Kipling.

MG

[HarryBrook]

Martin,

Going back to your post #228, J. S. N. FitzGerald's promotion to Lt. was dated 2.5.1914 in the Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28853/page/5867

Harry

[Guest]

Martin,

Going back to your post #228, J. S. N. FitzGerald's promotion to Lt. was dated 2.5.1914 in the Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28853/page/5867

Harry

Thanks I had 4/8/14 as my earliest date in the search filter... that at least eliminates him and any other confusion. Greatly appreciated. MG

[MelPack]

If the drift of this thread is that the remains in the re-named grave have to be either those of Kipling or 2nd Lt Thomas Pakenham Law then is it worth reviewing the information available for Law?

A cursory glance at the readily available records for Law indicates that he died of wounds. His De Ruvigny entry has the curious detail of 'mortally wounded at the Battle of Loos ... dying three hours later. Buried in a garden at Loos'

The Catholic Roll of Honour also records him as Dow; his MIC has both 'died' and 'KIA' etc

If there is any extant contemporary evidence that Law did indeed die three hours after being mortally wounded, would that not suggest that his remains would have been interred away from the locality of the chalk pits?

[laughton]

I guess it helps to speak and read German I based my statement about him being a POW on what the ICRC says where I got the files:

Archives 1914-1918: during the First World War, 10 million people, servicemen or civilians, were captured and sent to detention camps.The belligerent countries involved provided lists of prisoners to the ICRC, wich created an index card for each prisoner and detainee. Now, you can search through all 5 million of them.

If it is critical I can contact the ICRC for confirmation as they are quite helpful. In the end for Clifford it is only that it is not him as he was 36 km away.

[laughton]

The two locations where there as a "Lieutenant Irish Guards" (sorry I think I marked it 2nd Lt. on map) and the "Other British Officer", which if you look at Google Earth could have been in the woods or a garden in 1915. It is still in the woods today but within the expanded quarry.

The image for the current Google Earth view of what is shown below is here: Google Earth Image of Grid Marks

[AOK4]

I guess it helps to speak and read German I based my statement about him being a POW on what the ICRC says where I got the files:

If it is critical I can contact the ICRC for confirmation as they are quite helpful. In the end for Clifford it is only that it is not him as he was 36 km away.

There is a Cité St-Auguste near lens as well...