CWGC confirms that John Kipling is buried in the correct grave

[Ghazala]

Have you news of my boy Jack?

Not this tide.

When d'you think that he'll come back?

Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

For what is sunk will hardly swim

Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?

None this tide

Nor any tide

Except he did not shame his kind

Not even with that wind blowing and that tide.

Then hold your head up all the more

This tide

And every tide;

Because he was the son you bore

And gave to that wind blowing and that tide.

Rudyard Kipling

[Muerrisch]

A spokesman for the commission said that it had carried out a review of the matter, which concluded that there was “clear and compelling evidence” that the body buried there was that of John Kipling.

Except that those outside the magic circle are seemingly not to be allowed to know the "clear and compelling evidence".

I have not studied the matter in depth, and have not the expertise to add comment, but there are indeed those so qualified, and Major Holt cannot, does not, speak for them.

As my old boss once said "saying it is so does not make it so".

[Jonathan Saunders]

"Mr Francis said the commission now believes there is “clear and convincing” evidence that it made the right call in 1992."

Poppycock.

[John_Hartley]

On the basis of what I've read from this thread, I think I'd agree with Jonathan's observation.

The wording of that sentence is such that it implies that there is new "clear and convincing" evidence that substantiates the documentation that was used for the original decision. I see no such new evidence. I can only presume, therefore, that there has only been a review of the original decision making process which has concluded "Yep, we've looked again at what we did and we got it right".

[laughton]

I think that this is highly coincidental or that this is based on our submission to the CWGC of October 26, 2015. We received confirmation yesterday that they had accepted our findings that the grave coordinates were wrong.

A copy of that submission, with all the documents can be found here:

Kipling Submission from Canada

We did not state that we could conclude that the body was that of Kipling's, only that it was in the correct place. In order to arrive at that conclusion it is necessary to prove that Lt. Law was taken to hospital (field ambulance, casualty clearing station, etc.), that he died there and was buried between Loos and Chalk Pit Woods. Prove that and THEN you can say it is the body of Kipling in that grave.

All that I can see from way over here across the pond is the first part of the article, as amazingly we don't subscribe to the Times. If someone can post the text of the complete article, that would be greatly appreciated.

[ss002d6252]

I think that this is highly coincidental or that this is based on our submission to the CWGC of October 26, 2015. We received confirmation yesterday that they had accepted our findings that the grave coordinates were wrong.

A copy of that submission, with all the documents can be found here:

Kipling Submission from Canada

We did not state that we could conclude that the body was that of Kipling's, only that it was in the correct place. In order to arrive at that conclusion it is necessary to prove that Lt. Law was taken to hospital (field ambulance, casualty clearing station, etc.), that he died there and was buried between Loos and Chalk Pit Woods. Prove that and THEN you can say it is the body of Kipling in that grave.

All that I can see from way over here across the pond is the first part of the article, as amazingly we don't subscribe to the Times. If someone can post the text of the complete article, that would be greatly appreciated.

It may well be a 'press release' triggered by the recent interest that has been shown.

Craig

[roughdiamond]

Just got round to reading "The Kipling submission from Canada" in Laughton's post #106 above and it makes a good case for the incorrect grid reference for the Irish Guards Lt's remains being found and therefore a good supporting case for them being Kiplings. for those who haven't taken the time to read it and the submission for the identification of the grave of Lt Donald Wallace McDonald 15th Bn, 48th Highlanders of Canada, they are worth a read, for those who have, I notice CWGC still haven't changed Lt McDonalds entry, so it looks as if it's either still being considered or has been rejected.

Sam

[laughton]

First in reply to the above, thank you for the "Like". Our Canadian reports go first to the "CWGC Canadian Agency" (Veterans Affairs Canada staff in reality) which is located in Ottawa, Ontario Canada. They have to review and support the report before it goes to CWGC Maidenhead. Since last year (December 2014) we have submitted more than 30 reports to match names and graves. To the best of our knowledge not one of the reports have been read as of this date (December 2015).

To continue on now with the Kipling story, it is possible that we have also identified the location of the remains of Lt. Law, for as you recall he was reported to have been buried south Chalk Pit Woods, north of Loos. During the Canadian search for the Unknown we have kept a watchful eye for British Officers found in this sector and a perfect match for Lt. Law came up yesterday. These remains are in the Loos British Cemetery Plot 8 Row A Grave 1. There is no "smoking gun" in terms of it being a 2nd Lieutenant or a member of the Irish Guards, we only know it to be an Unknown British Officer that was found at 44A.H25.c.5.4 and if there was a better find it would have had to have been on top of this Unknown Officer. I have added his coordinates (purple) to what we previously showed for the Kipling candidate (green).

The related files are as follows:

• Graves Registration Report Form
• Concentrations of Graves

[brummell]

If Law is believed to have died at some form of medical facility, does this location work? Surely only an RAP would have been so far forward (and even then, surely not this far forward)?

As you say, there is no smoking gun, but for this location to be right for the remains of Law, the medical aspect would have to be discounted I think.

- brummell

[laughton]

To the best of my knowledge, the fate of Lt. Law is conjecture. I was not able to find any evidence on that specific matter so I checked with Toni and Valmai Holt and that was there conclusion as well. Either way, the reports that do exist suggest that even if he did stop at an aid station or go to a casualty centre, he was buried between the woods and Loos in that area shown on the map.

There is no doubt that with the 1915 British action and then the Canadians in August 1917, there are a lot of burials in that area and they have gone to a number of cemeteries.

[Indefatigable]

This matter is featured in the BBC website magazine this morning.

regards

Indefatigable

[CGM]

And an 11 page article in STAND TO ! (The journal of the Western Front Association, for those not familiar with this publication).

CGM

[trajan]

This matter is featured in the BBC website magazine this morning.

Just spotted that at - http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35321716

[stevem49]

I wonder why an Unknown private, N&D (for which I sent in a 20 page dossier) cannot be named as a Sgt died the same day?

The private died around midnight on the day before apparently.

At least I and his family know who is buried there

[ss002d6252]

I wonder why an Unknown private, N&D (for which I sent in a 20 page dossier) cannot be named as a Sgt died the same day?

The private died around midnight on the day before apparently.

At least I and his family know who is buried there

Out of curiosity, does the effects register show him as a Sgt ?

Craig

[bierast]

Have you news of my boy Jack?

Not this tide.

When d'you think that he'll come back?

Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

For what is sunk will hardly swim

Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?

None this tide

Nor any tide

Except he did not shame his kind

Not even with that wind blowing and that tide.

Then hold your head up all the more

This tide

And every tide;

Because he was the son you bore

And gave to that wind blowing and that tide.

Rudyard Kipling

As performed by my friend Mr. Andrew King - a traditional folk singer, scholar and gentleman who has recorded several WW1-related Kipling pieces.

[SteveMarsdin]

The excellent article in Stand To is very compelling and agrees with the Canadian viewpoint that the grid was wrongly listed as G instead of H. It would appear that both sets of researchers have communicated with CWGC at the same time and probably explains the CWGC's confidence in asserting that it is Kipling's grave. It is a shame that the CWGC couldn't be more open (unless they were bound by a Stand To publishing agreement).

Steve

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Closure finally, albeit far too late for his heartbroken father.

[Simon_Fielding]

Scratch that - got one!

If anyone has access to the Telegraph article, I'd appreciate a copy.

[stevem49]

Out of curiosity, does the effects register show him as a Sgt ?

Craig

Craig

As yet I have not gone back to it. After two attempts, the family said it did not matter as they know it is him and are happy with my 'deductions'! Both men are on Menin Gate.

Although one of the two has to be buried there, so if mine is wrong, then surely the other is correct!

Steve

[ss002d6252]

Craig

As yet I have not gone back to it. After two attempts, the family said it did not matter as they know it is him and are happy with my 'deductions'! Both men are on Menin Gate.

Although one of the two has to be buried there, so if mine is wrong, then surely the other is correct!

Steve

It's got to be one or the other then but I suppose you can only push so far.

Craig

[Ghazala]

Found this today...

A century of mystery about what happened to John Kipling, known as Jack, as he led his troops into action during the Battle of Loos in September 1915 may have been solved, according to new research published by the Western Front Association.

Authors Graham Parker and Joanna Legg suggest that the only son of the poet and author, Rudyard Kipling, is correctly buried in a grave marked with his name in St Mary’s Advanced Dressing Station Commonwealth Cemetery near Loos.

After John was reported missing at Loos, Rudyard Kipling sought to establish his son’s fate, and possibly, his final resting place by interviewing witnesses in Jack's battalion, 2/Irish Guards, but he was unable to determine what happened to him.

Kipling was deeply affected by his son’s disappearance and wrote the famous poem My Boy Jack. At the Armistice, John Kipling still remained officially 'missing'.

It was Rudyard Kipling who suggested the inscription 'Known unto God' for the gravestones of unidentified British and Commonweath soldiers of the Great War. The author also inspired use of the Biblical epitaph, 'Their Name Liveth for Evermore'.

In September 1919, the body of an unidentified Irish Guards lieutenant was recovered from the Loos battlefield and buried in an unnamed grave at St Mary’s A.D.S. Cemetery.

More than 70 years later, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission determined in 1992 that this was the last resting place of John Kipling and erected a headstone.

Whether the body buried in the grave is that of Kipling has been the subject of intense debate, the Western Front Association (WFA) says.

But after detailed research, Graham Parker and his daughter, Joanna Legg, conclude 'on the balance of probabilities' that his identification is correct.

The WFA explains: "It has been argued that the body of the unidentified officer was recovered three miles from where John fought - and that John was a second lieutenant on the day of his death and, though promoted to Lieutenant, he went into action as such as his promotion had not been officially announced.

"The article presents new evidence to show that the mapping reference given for the site of where the unidentified lieutenant’s body was discovered in 1919 was an error and once corrected, this puts the actual place where the body was found very close to where John was fighting and witnesses' reports say he was last seen.

"In addition, the authors confirm documentary records, that John was a lieutenant on the day of his death. As no other lieutenants in the Irish Guards were unaccounted for on the Loos battlefield, the discovered Irish Guards lieutenant indicates that John was wearing this rank in the battle."

The full article is published in the January 2016 edition of the Western Front Association's journal, 'Stand To!' This month marks the 80th anniversary of Rudyard Kipling's death in 1936. Kipling, author of the Jungle Book, Just So Stories and Kim, was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1907.

Lieutenant Colonel (Retd.) Graham Parker served with the British Army and Civil Service for 45 years. His knowledge of the Western Front developed from guiding weekend tours while serving on the staff at NATO headquarters in Mons. Col. Parker is a Vice President of the Western Front Association.

Joanna Legg, a graduate in German Studies from the University of Warwick, has been a member of the WFA since 1988. For 14 years, she was a regular speaker at WFA branches and seminars

[trajan]

Found this today...

Source please? It always helps!

[corisande]

Seems to be from

http://www.centenarynews.com/article/news-of-my-boy-jack---solving-the-mystery-of-john-kipling

[stiletto_33853]

I found the ST! article on Kipling a very hard grind. The map explanations were, for me, hindered by the maps and annotations shown. Rather too often, "likely" or "possibly" or "probably" segued into fact.

My jury is still out. I doubt if it will ever deliver a verdict.

Have to agree here, I found the article hard going with the "likely" or "probably" and "possibly" used far to often leaving me unconvinced.

Andy